Question about Relief Crews

[andrewjonathon]

From reading different threads, it seems like it is pretty common for trains to get parked out on the 'road' due to the crew hitting the maximum allowable hours of service.

What is a relief crews work day like? After they have rescued a train whose crew went dead before reaching the terminal, is the relief crew's workday over or do they have to relieve multiple trains in a single shift?

If their day consists only of bringing a single train into the terminal, it seems like it could be a pretty short shift at times given how close many of the dead trains get to tne next terminal.

Also, how common is if for train crews to go dead before reaching the terminal? Is it as common as it seems? It seems like this represent a large cost to railroad companies.

Thanks

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by andrewjonathon

From reading different threads, it seems like it is pretty common for trains to get parked out on the 'road' due to the crew hitting the maximum allowable hours of service.

What is a relief crews work day like? After they have rescued a train whose crew went dead before reaching the terminal, is the relief crew's workday over or do they have to relieve multiple trains in a single shift?

If their day consists only of bringing a single train into the terminal, it seems like it could be a pretty short shift at times given how close many of the dead trains get to tne next terminal.

Also, how common is if for train crews to go dead before reaching the terminal? Is it as common as it seems? It seems like this represent a large cost to railroad companies.

Thanks

First, there is no such thing as a "relief crew". Usually when a train dies near a terminal either:

1. A yard crew is sent by cab to bring the train into the terminal, or;

2. A new crew is called to bring the train into the terminal. The new crew could
be either the next crew on the pool or a crew called off of the extra board.

Which of these methods is used will depend upon many factors including the train priority (i.e the UPS vans won't be allowed to sit for long), labor agreements in effect, official in charge, crew availablilty, cab availability, track space in the terminal and on the main line/sidings, and numerous other factors that are dependent upon the existing circumstances.

Oh, and yes, trains dying on the law can cause huge problems and therefore expenses.

LC

[mackb4]

Yes there is such a thing as a relief crew.Some railroads call it "outlaw relief" such as we do on the NS.I "doubled" back out of my away terminal yesterday and was going to run out of time on returning home.So an "outlaw relief crew " was sent from my home terminal to rescue us.They was originally scheduled to take my train to our home terminal,then go back out (time permitting) and get another outlawed crew.But things changed,and the "relief crew " swapped trains with the other crew mentioned and that crew brought the train I had on in.One reason being the other crew had work to do outside of the home terminal (setting out half of their 250 car coal train).I don't know about other railroads,but here a pool crew is not allowed to go as a relief crew from the home terminal because it creates a not used in turn timeslip for first ,the extra men ,because this is strictly extra work out of the home terminals extra list.Than two ,if no extra crew is rested in home terminal to the first out rested crew in the away from home terminal.And for the question of how often the happens.Well it depends on how good the dispatcher is on managing their traffic.Here on the Poca.district we run alot of coal trains and time frieghts.And with crews setting off and picking up online,it gets clustered to say the least [V].A "releif crew " can work the regular 11hrs.59mins.Our agreement for qualifying for a relief crew short turnaround(or an extra days pay while working a relief job )is as follows. (1.)Miles run is equal to or greater than 100 miles (excluding deadhead mile *in a taxi) (2.) Last trip of initial trminal begins after crew is on duty 8 hours. (3.) Engineers only - At least one leg of run is more than 25 miles(or 50 miles round trip).So it is a cunfusing world [:O] in railroading.

[Anonymous]

Mack -

Obviously you are working under a different agreement down your way than our lovely Nickel Plate Agreement up here north of the frost line...

There are certainly occasions that a pool crew can't do certain things without creating a slip situation, such as additional work beyond what they are allowed, which was my point about the terms of the agreements above.

I've never heard of the term "relief crew" used before, but obviously your terminology differs as well. Up here it would simply be an "extra crew" or "extra men".

LC

[Anonymous]

i have always heard it called a dogcatch crew. it did not matter weather or not it was a pool crew or an extra board crew.

[Kathi Kube]

I have a close friend in the Chicago terminal area who works the extra board as a relief engineer, and his days vary all over the board. If the weather's especially bad, or if traffic's unusually heavy and crews are short, he can expect to be on his engine his full 12 hours — and not tie down for a couple hours beyond that if it takes the cab a long time to pick him up and bring him back to his home terminal.

On the other hand, if traffic is light and he's got several crews available behind him, he might be sent home earlier so the railroad doesn't have to pay overtime.

Another variable, though, is where the trains are that he gets. Sometimes he'll go from one yard to another quickly, especially if it's on his home rails. If he's taking a train over trackage rights, he might sit for a VERY long time waiting for a signal. I remember at least one day/night that he finished up with one train, and got sent to another in another railroad's yard only to sit there until he went dead on the law — never turned a wheel.

One day last week, maybe, he relieved crews on three different trains. If he's very lucky, though, he'll need to run north into Wisconsin, and that will be it for the day.

No day is ever like the one before it, though. He has no idea when he'll get called. On a typical day, he might be off his rest at midnight, be third out, wait all day, then not get called until 6 p.m. for an 8 p.m. start. You never know. From what I see, it's a very hard life. But he loves railroading.

Kathi

[mackb4]

Limitedclear,I guess that goes to show the different terminology, agreements,and methods of operation on the railroads,even sometimes on the same system.We had some guys that were former NKP in Portsmouth Ohio.They had some good agreements.

[Soo2610]

Not all "dog catch" runs are close to the destination terminal. I had the privlege of getting a cab ride on one that only got five miles from the starting terminal! Don't know what happened and not sure I want to know. Do know that we took this train roughly 146 miles south on a priority level to the next crew change point and the only thing we holed for was an oncoming "Z" train. The crew that got called for this train was the next one up on the regular call board.

[jimrice4449]

This probably coulldn't happen now (I retired in 1988), but the all time gold mine trip I had on the BN was a dog catch where we left Spokane on a SD-40 (4 man crew...3 seats) to pick up a westbound train that reported 1 unit down.. When crew districts were stretched Troy Mt was eliminated as a crew point but remained the div. point btween Spokane & Rocky Mt. We got full mileage to Troy and 100 miles on the Rocky Mt div going the 10 or 15 miles to Libby where the train was. After coupling up we got another 100 miles from Libby to Troy and then the full mileage into Spokane (which we barely made on the law which would have required yet another crew.)

[ValleyX]

Relief crews, outlaw relief, dog catchers, and bear crews to relieve the bears that died in the woods. Anybody know any other terms?

[Anonymous]

I always heard fly crew work..

[Rodney Beck]

On BNSF relief crews are called off the extra boards except when they are exhausted then a pool crew is called, when a pool crew is called the crew makes alot of money as the get payed for the relief and also get a make whole for the trip they would have made and also get to hold their spot in the pool. When I was a conductor I made alot of money jumping up to do relief jobs.

Rodney

[cefinkjr]

And while we're about reporting the local names of varous "relief" crews, do the names also apply to crews sent out to bring in trains that were held out of a terminal because of congestion? The crew didn't outlaw; there just wasn't any place in the yard to put the train.

This used to happen frequently at Conway (major PRR yard west of Pittsburgh). Trains lying on various main tracks leading to Conway were a common site.

[JimValle]

Relief work seems to depend a lot on local circumstances. Norfolk Southern's Delmarva Sub has a chronic problem with Amtrak. It's trains run between Harrington, Delaware and Harrisburg. The route is a little over 100 miles but there is one section between Havre de Grace MD and Newark, DE where the trains have to get onto the Amtrak Corridor. They are only supposed to use the Corridor between midnight and 6 AM but any delay or problem that prevents this puts them at the mercy of the Amtrak dispatchers causing them to outlaw. They usually make it to either Clayton or Dover ( southbound ) where there are sidings long enough to accomodate a whole train and there they sit until someone comes from Harrington, thirty or so miles south, to get them and bring the train in. Sometimes the trains sit for several hours rumbling in idle and spitting air out of the brake relief valves.

[jeffhergert]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ValleyX

Relief crews, outlaw relief, dog catchers, and bear crews to relieve the bears that died in the woods. Anybody know any other terms?

Hog Relief. This term around here is used more for being called out of a terminal and going out to relieve a train and take it to the other terminal. Dog catching is going out to relieve a train and bring it back to your on duty terminal.
The extra board guys can still make some good money dog catching, if certain conditions per our agreements are met. If a pool guy gets called because the extra board is exhausted, the pool guy gets a trip rate day.
Some times you may get one train, or many. I talked to a friend who was called to dog catch and never left the yard office in 8 hours, while I was struggling to make it to the terminal limits before dying on the law.
One time when I was dog catching we had to be relieved because we were running out of time.
Jeff

[bestengineer]

As an Engineer, I "Got" lots of trains and took them to "yard".
But the most "Short" relief day was when my car was in the shop, and the crew dsp. called me to bring in a "Dog-Lawed" train 30 miles from the station. They were very short of engineers, so when he told me that, I told him that I did not have my car. So he called a taxi to come to my house to pick me up and when we yarded the train a taxi was waiting to take me home! Now That's Relief!!

Bestengineer.

[BaltACD]

There are almost as many terms used to identify 'Relief Crews' as there are railroads and crew districts. There are also hundreds, if not thousands of reasons, why trains don't complete their assigned run with a single crew. In todays railroad world most of those reasons have to do with two basic categorys.....mechanical problems (either locomotive or car) or Congestion (either terminal or line of road).

How many trains a single 'Relief Crew' can handle depends on a variety of factors, most importantly distance from the final terminal, time involved in yarding the train at the final terminal and if highway transportation is immediately on hand for movement to the next train.

The worst strategic mistake a railroad can make is to expect crews to accomplish more than is realistically possible. Today's railroads commit this mistake routinely and thereby create their own recrews.

[Anonymous]

YES there are Reliefe crews...and dog cath crews and could be extra could be pool or could be a yard crew if within switching limits for that terminal.
Depends on how many crews are close to being dead on law (hours of service) how far away they are from each other and just time involved to accompli***he first dog catch to see if you can do another. I worked on conrail and yes were always alot of dead trains just before conway...since it could get congested there but they would just send out the outbound crew to relieve you there since most were through trains with one or no set outs

[Anonymous]

When I worked for the Espee back in the late seventies we were always "dying on the law". I was a Brakeman and worked off of the extra board on the Western Division out of Oakland, CA. It was not uncommon to get out of the yard to create space for other trains coming in and be parked in a siding 20 to 30 miles up the tracks for hours on end until you would reach your twelve hour limit. There would eventually be a crew sent out to pick up the train and the dead crew would be hauled off in the company van. I enjoyed jobs where we actually got to do some set outs or switching moves while out on the main line as compared to get on and ride jobs, keeps you more awake. That is what railroading was all about to me, not sitting in some siding trying to keep myself awake. As Kathi said earlier "no day is ever like the one before" and it is a hard way to make a living as you find yourself very isolated from the everyday life that most people share. Maybe that is what makes railroading so very special, but only to those lucky enough to have experienced working around trains. I was not lucky enough to stick with it as I had really lousy seniority and was always getting laid off and then called back to service. I finally had to get a real job that I could depend on to support myself. Oh well would have almost been retired from the railroad had I been able to stick it out.

[sebamat]

I very often read of trains waiting in sidings for a signal to turn green, or to cross a diamond. I do not have the impression that traffic is soo heavy ( a few trains/hour on the line ? not really up to some european lines were you have 20-30 trains/h).

Is this due that the dispatcher, having to comer hundreds of miles of track, is too busy to 'answer' your call or there are very long 'safety times' between movements (e.g. if the next train is sheduled in 30 min the do not open the crossing for you?). Or just plain rivality between different RR?

sebastiano

[Underw8]

I have to disagree slightly with the statement that "There is no such thing as relief crews." In a large metropolitan area, such as NYC, Philly, Baltimore, etc. a relief crew would be a 2-man crew (engineer/brakeman) who takes engines to the shop for service. Perhaps it has brake problems; maybe it is due for its service, which is done at the main engine housing.
HOWEVER: the relief crew cannot go beyond the Yard Limits board (either direction.)
The relief crew picks up the engine(s) at "point a" and transports them to the local engine house. After which, they may also take another engine(s) back to the yard where it obtained the unit(s) it picked up earlier -- IF it didn't take replacement units to the yard on the way to pick up the one requiring service.
The relief crew can also be used to transport the engine(s) from a train whose crew reached the limit of Hours of Service Law while in the yard, and before taking engine(s) to shop.
Hope this clarifies how the term "relief crew" differs from "dog catchers," or "outlaw relief" for trains which are caught on the line of road (main) due to a crewmember's time (hours of service) expiring.

[Anonymous]

IF a Yard Crew is Qualified can they go out and rescure a train? On the BNSF out here they ususally use the Local 452 or a Yard Crew.

[Anonymous]

I heard once of a BNSF job going dead on the main only about two miles from home. The relief crew called was a local that just returned into town. Those guys got a timeslip for performing work outside their scope of duties.

[Soo2610]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Underw8

I have to disagree slightly with the statement that "There is no such thing as relief crews." In a large metropolitan area, such as NYC, Philly, Baltimore, etc. a relief crew would be a 2-man crew (engineer/brakeman) who takes engines to the shop for service. Perhaps it has brake problems; maybe it is due for its service, which is done at the main engine housing.
HOWEVER: the relief crew cannot go beyond the Yard Limits board (either direction.)
The relief crew picks up the engine(s) at "point a" and transports them to the local engine house. After which, they may also take another engine(s) back to the yard where it obtained the unit(s) it picked up earlier -- IF it didn't take replacement units to the yard on the way to pick up the one requiring service.
The relief crew can also be used to transport the engine(s) from a train whose crew reached the limit of Hours of Service Law while in the yard, and before taking engine(s) to shop.
Hope this clarifies how the term "relief crew" differs from "dog catchers," or "outlaw relief" for trains which are caught on the line of road (main) due to a crewmember's time (hours of service) expiring.

Ibelieve what you are describing is called a hosteler. They move the engines within the yard but do not leave it.