4'-8 1/2"

[Murphy Siding]

How far off guage can the rails be, before the train falls off the track? Some local shortline tracks here look pretty wiggly, but the train stays on the tracks. I look at old pictures of Milwaukee Road branch lines, and wonder how the train got anywhere at all?

[TheS.P.caboose]

1/8th of an inch will cause a derailment.

[edblysard]

Excuse me, but...
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ..........

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheS.P.caboose

1/8th of an inch will cause a derailment.

[jeaton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheS.P.caboose

1/8th of an inch will cause a derailment.

OMG, don't let any cars or locomotives know that, there will be trains on the ground all over the place.

[Anonymous]

According to the FRA Track Safety Standards. These are the minimums and maximums.
Class 1 ....................4' 8" to 4' 10"
Class 2 and 3..........4' 8" to 4' 9-3/4"
Class 4 and 5..........4' 8" to 4' 9-1/2"
Excepted track..........up to 4' 10-1/4"

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jarubel

According to the FRA Track Safety Standards. These are the minimums and maximums.
Class 1 ....................4' 8" to 4' 10"
Class 2 and 3..........4' 8" to 4' 9-3/4"
Class 4 and 5..........4' 8" to 4' 9-1/2"
Excepted track..........up to 4' 10-1/4"

For those of you that may be interested in verifying this, this comes from US CFR Title 49 Part 213 Section 53, available online at http://FRWebGate.Access.GPO.gov/cgi-bin/get-cfr.cgi?TITLE=49&PART=213&SECTION=53&TYPE=TEXT

Excepted-class trackage makes up a good percentage of the track on my shortline railroad that I work for, and I can personally vouch that trains will safely traverse the 4' 10.25" guage, although such pieces of track are restricted by Form A to "Walking Speed" (a.k.a. about 3 or 4 MPH) for good reason.

[wabash1]

Ed

Be nice he probley ment 1/8 of a yard.... but if hes right no wonder it took so much amps to get that cut of cars moving and keep it rolling

[mudchicken]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1

Ed

Be nice he probley ment 1/8 of a yard.... but if hes right no wonder it took so much amps to get that cut of cars moving and keep it rolling

Probably thinks switching speed = ramming speed?[;)]

At 61", the wheelsets fall-in on their own.

Maybe he puts 1/8 of the yard on the ground?

[(-D][(-D][(-D]

[blhanel]

I find it strange that Class 1's are allowed more deviation than the others. Or is that not referring to the class of the railroad?

[Tulyar15]

When the Tal-y-llyn Railway was taken over by the preservationists in 1951 (becoming the world's first preserved railroad) the track was in very poor shape, as were its two locos. The TR Preservationists purchased two 2' 3" locos from the neighbouring Corris Railway which had just closed and these were in much better shape as the CR had been taken over by the Great Western in 1930 (and thus briefly was a part of British Rail after nationalisation in 1948). But the tyres were thinner on the two ex Corris locos and #3 often fell between the rails. Some of these incidents were used by the Rev. Awdry in his book "Four Little Engines" ( #10 in the Thomas "Railway Series" book in which we'e introduced to the Skarloey Railway on the mythical Isle of Sodor).

The Ffestiniog had a bit of trouble with the two locos they purchased from the 1' 10.75" Penrhyn railway. In the early days of her time on the FR, ex PR "Linda" often derailed at a particular crossing, which became known as "Linda's Leep".

[CShaveRR]

Brian, those are FRA track classifications. Class 1 is the worst classification, other than "excepted". UP's main line is maintained to class 5 standards, I believe.

I seem to recall that one eastern railroad (forgot whether it was "Penn" or "Central") laid its tracks at 4'8-1/4" because it allegedly made things move more efficiently. Any info on that?

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jarubel

According to the FRA Track Safety Standards. These are the minimums and maximums.
Class 1 ....................4' 8" to 4' 10"
Class 2 and 3..........4' 8" to 4' 9-3/4"
Class 4 and 5..........4' 8" to 4' 9-1/2"
Excepted track..........up to 4' 10-1/4"

These are the maximums *allowed* by the standards, but does that mean the wheels drop between the rails at 4'-11''?.

[edblysard]

The mudchicken answered that...at 5'1", (61").
Ed

QUOTE: Originally posted by jarubel

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by jarubel

According to the FRA Track Safety Standards. These are the minimums and maximums.
Class 1 ....................4' 8" to 4' 10"
Class 2 and 3..........4' 8" to 4' 9-3/4"
Class 4 and 5..........4' 8" to 4' 9-1/2"
Excepted track..........up to 4' 10-1/4"

These are the maximums *allowed* by the standards, but does that mean the wheels drop between the rails at 4'-11''?.

I'm no expert, but I don't think there is any exact measurement where the wheels would drop between the rails. I'm sure there are other factors involved here, such as speed and the profile of the rail and wheels and tangent track vs. curve.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

The mudchicken answered that...at 5'1", (61").
Ed

Thanks Ed: I guess I wasn't paying enough attention.[:)] Would a C-C trucked locomotive, like the Milwaukee Road SD 39L be able to stay *on track*, so to speak, on track that is way out of guage?

[espeefoamer]

Back in the mid 1960s,the MKT was experiencing derailments of standing freight cars on industrial spurs. That had to be some really bad track[8][B)].

[SteelMonsters]

I would think that 61" is the distance between the contact surface of one flange to the edge of the opposite wheel. It's probably in the interest of the wheels and track that there is at least an inch and a half of overlap so they last longer.

Also you can't forget that the wheel must ride on the wing rail to make a transition to the frog rail. There are tolerances there. The guard rail make sure the wheel is in position so the wheel doesn't pick the frog.

[jchnhtfd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

The mudchicken answered that...at 5'1", (61").
Ed

Thanks Ed: I guess I wasn't paying enough attention.[:)] Would a C-C trucked locomotive, like the Milwaukee Road SD 39L be able to stay *on track*, so to speak, on track that is way out of guage?

In partial answer to that -- within the tolerance allowed for the track class, the gauge is sometimes widened (but only within tolerance!!!!) on sharp curves. This was more common in the bad old days, when some of the longer wheel base steam engines had a tendency to straighten rail, in spite of lateral motion, if they were right out of the shop and stiff, but it is also done on sharp curves for C trucks. But to reiterate: only within the tolerances allowed by the class of track. See Jarubel's post for the tolerances.

There are other tolerances for cross level and longitudinal level, as well as uniformity of curvature and straightness.

[stanstmr]

How are rails fastened to concrete ties. Can it be done more than once

[Anonymous]

7 members: RIRR80 | Lotus098 | okschim | jerryklarson | prrdon | eesmith | stanstmr

Big crowd for a topic with no fight. Get you popcorn here.

[mudchicken]

QUOTE: Originally posted by stanstmr

How are rails fastened to concrete ties. Can it be done more than once

Most have a steel connection piece to accomodate a D-E Clip or a pandrol clip connected to the reinforcing bar steel/ tensile cable in the concrete. If those are broken, the tie is worthless (good for a parking stall buffer/curb in a parking lot or as funny looking rip-rap).[zzz][zzz][zzz]

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jchnhtfd

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

The mudchicken answered that...at 5'1", (61").
Ed

Thanks Ed: I guess I wasn't paying enough attention.[:)] Would a C-C trucked locomotive, like the Milwaukee Road SD 39L be able to stay *on track*, so to speak, on track that is way out of guage?

In partial answer to that -- within the tolerance allowed for the track class, the gauge is sometimes widened (but only within tolerance!!!!) on sharp curves. This was more common in the bad old days, when some of the longer wheel base steam engines had a tendency to straighten rail, in spite of lateral motion, if they were right out of the shop and stiff, but it is also done on sharp curves for C trucks. But to reiterate: only within the tolerances allowed by the class of track. See Jarubel's post for the tolerances.

There are other tolerances for cross level and longitudinal level, as well as uniformity of curvature and straightness.

I just read about CBQ 2-10-2's and 2-10-4's (?) that were built without flanges on the center 3 driving axels. This, I presume was to eliminate rail straightening?

[nobullchitbids]

Correct Murphy: Long-wheelbase steam locomotives sometimes were designed with "blind" interior drivers to allow them to negotiate sharper curves. For example, the U.P.'s Nines (4-12-2s) originally came with blind fourth drivers to allow them to be used in the Blue Mountains. They straightened the track anyway and were banished from the district. Because other areas in which they were used did not have such sharp curves and grades, U.P. determined that the blinding no longer was necessary and added flanged tires. Almost all of the photos one sees of these locomotives show all drivers flanged.

[wccobb]

My apologies for being so tardy. It's taken some time to locate definitions and some definitive figures. Also, sorrry to seem as a "picker-of-nits".

Width of Wheel: Distance between the back (inside, flange side) edge of the wheel and the front (outside) edge of the wheel = 5 3/8 inches.

Thickness of Flange: the distance measured parallel to the base line between two lines perpendicular thereto, one drawn through the point of measurement of "inside gage of flanges" and the other drawn through the point of measurement of "gage of wheels" = 1 15/64 inches.

Over All Gage: the distance parallel to base line from outer edge of one wheel to the outer edge of mate wheel = 5 ft. 4 3/8 inches (64 3/8").

Assume a curve sharp enough (or other cause) that one flange will be tight against the side of its rail. If the spread of the rail at that place is 4 ft. 11 63/64 inches (59 63/64") the opposite wheel can slip past its rail and drop to the ties. (YES -- worn flanges can allow one wheel to drop between with a lesser spread. But this is my post and I'm gonna stick to new wheels).

However, if this spread were on straight track (or other) where the flanges tend to "self-center", the wheels would roll across the 59 63/64" spread and not derail.

But when the spread becomes the same as the Over All Gage (64 3/8") there is no way the wheels can stay on top of the rail and both wheels will drop to the ties.

Can't quote source, but I've read that the Pennsylvania Railroad used track gage of 4 ft. 9 inches. The rationale was that the extra half inch reduced flange wear. Haven't heard that Penn Central, Conrail, CSX or NS ever changed it.

[Anonymous]

Theoretically speaking, increasing gauge would increase bearing wear slightly, as there would be more revolutions in a given distance because of the taper.

[nobullchitbids]

Well, Junky, that raises yet another issue:

I assume most of us know that flanges for the most part play no real role in keeping the train on the track -- their purpose is for emergency only. The real secret of a railroad wheel is its taper, since as you mention, this does tend to make the truck self-center.

Now, the question becomes: How far apart can the rails spread before this centering effect is diminished to the point that the wheel no longer is doing its job? I would suspect that 4 feet, eleven inches and whatever, even on straight track, is too far apart.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nobullchitbids

Well, Junky, that raises yet another issue:

I assume most of us know that flanges for the most part play no real role in keeping the train on the track -- their purpose is for emergency only. The real secret of a railroad wheel is its taper, since as you mention, this does tend to make the truck self-center.

Maybe on the flat lands, but go to Tehachapi, Cajon, Raton, or anywhere else with curves, and those flanges are jamming hard on the curves. If the taper could handle all but emergencies, steam locomotives would not have flange oilers. On the straight, the taper can help prevent most wear on the flange, but the flange is still very, very necessary.

[joecool1212]

QUOTE: Originally posted by stanstmr

How are rails fastened to concrete ties. Can it be done more than once

I was waiting for an answer and this fell all the way to the back of the heap. now its at the front. joe A.