daddy says we can't play together anymore..

[cabforward]

TRAINS NEWSWIRE, 3-20-03,
(summary): railfans watching csx should know that employees are now required to report anyone photographing csx property to the law.. the story initially reported in the atlanta paper.. purportedly due to the increase of terrorist threats.. no reports of specific threats against the r.r. or confrontations between railfans and r.r.employees or the law.. and so it goes..

[louisnash]

It's amazing they would do that, even though they also have calendars that have their trains photographed on their website.

[cabforward]

sorry, i don't follow the reference to pictures and calendars.. please dumb it down..

[RudyRockvilleMD]

Since the terrorist threat has been ratcheted up recently have any railfans been hassled for photographing trains from public property? I don't think CSX is the only one to ask their employees to call the police if they see anything suspicious or out of the ordinary. Many cities and towns are asking their citizens to do the same thing.

How many people will call the police if they see railfans photographing trains from public property remains to be seen. My bet is few railfans will be reported. However, there is no law that I know of to prevent anybody from photographing anything from public property unless there is some identifiable military or strategic facility nearby. The best bet is to make sure you are on public property, and no strategic or military facility is nearby. It is also wise not to photograph trains near bridges, tunnel portals, engine terminals, and yards for the forseeable future.

[cabforward]

you are absolutely right.. public access is just that and we are the public.. law enforcement is a form of public service.. we are the public, we pay their taxes..
i am not a photographer and do not frequent observation posts to watch trains.. but i have to say most people nowadays must have a queasy feeling when they are observing trains and a car pulls up with a blue light..
the next thing is explaining the purpose for being there.. of course, if there are a number of people in the watchers' group there is a feeling of strength in numbers.. in the worst case, one is alone (not advisable nowadays for men or women) or with a child.. how embarrassing it must be to have to explain oneself for doing nothing wrong with a child watching, your child..
then the cop leaves and you continue watching trains.. then what? should you offer an explanation to the child about what it meant? should you wait for the child to ask about the incident? i'm thinking it's better to ake the offensive and offer to explain the importance of what happened to the child and ask what questions they would like to ask..

it's a great theory, but many theories have been obliterated by reality.. i dont have a clue about how to explain it to a child so that they would not be disturbed by the incident and still want to continue watching trains after that..

as a former police officer of eight years on patrol, i would suggest a few 'do-bees':

do be friendly; do be humble; do be cooperative; do be on safe ground; do be candid, and most likely, the cop will soon be-gone.. also, a positive experience between the railfan and the law will generate good feelings the next time either encounters a member of the other's tribe..

it would also help to ask the officer's name or his business card, if available.. people who meet each other in a cordial and cooperative manner have every reason to exchange information as a record of the event.. it could act as a form of 'social cement' for future contact, esp. if a railfan passes on the name of the investigating officer to another railfan.. if the second fan encounters the same officer and refers back to the fan who met the officer previously, further 'bonding' can result and the pastime of train-watching has made another friend behind the badge.. no doubt the officer will relate his experiences to other policemen and the rapport will not only encourage cordiality between the law and railfans, it might even contribute to a policeman cutting a fan some slack down the line where the lack of trust could end up with an interview at the [police] station..

none of this is new material and none of it should seem surprising to anyone who practices outgoing human relations.. it's just presented in a form we easily identify with because it involves r.r.-ing..

one more thing.. never, never engage a lawman in 'oneupmanship'; never point out to a lawman why he is wrong for asking questions and why you are right for being where you are; never play 'lawyer' against a cop.. even f. lee bailey was convicted of dui..

if you're out to make friends with the law and keep on watching trains, practice the former; if you're out to show-up a cop's dedication to doing his job, practice the latter.. but you won't be practicing it very long and it could be a very expensive victory, even if you're right..

[edblysard]

To everyone reading this, Mr cabforward just gave you some excellent advise. Never, ever pick a verbal fight with a cop. The cop will allways win the first round, allways. And even if you are "right" you will most likely spend at least a few hours in the local jail. As a former cop, he was trying to put it nicely, but I know a few cops, too. And with the crap they have to put up with on a daily basis, I dont really blame them for not wanting to argue a point of law outside of a courtroom. As a patrol officer, I am sure he had to put up with a lot of street lawyers telling him what was "legal" and what wasnt, and more often than not, they were full of it..
As a former Office of the State of Texas, Office of the Attorney General, I can tell you that most people have so little contact with the law, not cops, but the legal concepts that form what is loosely call "law" that few, if any, realize that not following the orders of a uniformed police officer is, in itself, a crime. He has the legal right to make you move, even if you are on public property. He can do so if he feels that to allow you to remain will or can cause a disturbance. If he feels that you are in eminent danger, he dosnt have to explain why he is teling you to move. So take the former cops advice, act in a proffesional, courtous and clam manner, move when told to, you can ask why, and if you do so in the above manner, most cops will explain. If you dont like the explanation, get his or her badge number, and contact their supervisor later. Dont make threats, or tell him your going to get a lawyer, it dosnt work, and will only make the officer even more convinced your doing something you shouldnt be. So dont "fight" the cop, he will win. Keep in mind, he deals with all day long with criminals, so he may not have a warm and fuzzy attitude right then.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

I heard of one incident that happened not too long ago....We had a transfer coming thru the junction heading back in to yard the train. One of our trainmasters is an avid foamer. He is prone to screwing you, so here is what the crew done. They seen him standing near one of the adjacent tracks snapping shots of the engine. They knew who he was, so they called the DS and reported a person on the property acting suspicious and gave the location. They then heard the DS call for the trainmaster and watched him run back to his little white jeep to answer the call. Kind of funny I think. I probably wouldn't turn in a foamer unless they were acting goofey, wearing a turbin, actually on the property, or toting a bazooka (usually a dead give away for malicious intent). My suggestion to railfans is like these other guys said.....stay away from structures, stay away from appliances, and stay off of the property! Terrorist threat or not. It is a distraction that I don't need. And believe me that when working, I worry about others safety in the area as well as the crew's.....
Ken

[Anonymous]

I've been a foamer on rr property and also been a rr employee. The foamers in this area congregate at the same locations as always, and often there is groups of foamers. I beleive it benifits the railroads, I've worked with engineers that testify that the foamers are more reliable than hotbox detectors. Also at one loction wich is rr property there is a dance club nearby and there is often rifraf looking for a place to booz in their cars or cross the tracks, but are discouraged and leave when they see foamers. Often there is an out of town stranger foamer, not a problem. I think these foamers add to security. I mean the chance that one of these foamers is secretly a terrorist is as big as a rr emlpoyee could secretly be a terrorist.

[moelarrycurly4]

Recently there was a substantial derailment a block from my house. luckily it was a coal drag and nothing toxic. It woke me un at 2:30 am. I had the urge to go down there but in this time of security issues I choose not to and I still have not been to the site (other than to drive on the raod going somewhere else) I just did not feel it was worth getting "investigated."

[Anonymous]

You always respect the law. They are doing their job just like the engineers and conductors on the trains. As long as there is Veterans Memorial Park (Lattys Grove) here in Defiance this dad will take his son to play.I wonder if Deshler will have cops at their rail park too.They've probably met over 100 people by now.
Take pictures Leave footprints.
enjoy your Sunday
Joe and Matthew

[ironhorseman]

THE LAW: THEIR DUTY AND YOUR RIGHTS
so what? let them report railfans to the "law." where is it written that it's against the law? if it's written then it's unconstitutional. is this an arrestable offence? are they going to search persons? let me remind you there is a fourth amendment: no unreasonable search and seizures. there's also the first amendment: freedom of the press. tell them you're doing a news article then submit a story and photos to your local newspaper. (the article could be about increased security).

they can't throw you in jail unless you give them a reason to. just a couple of examples for an officer to arrest someone: 1. trespassing 2. fighting (with an officer or anyone else) 3. possession/use/distribution of drugs 4. unruly behavior 5. disturbing the peace.

if an officer tells you leave you'd better do it. pick another spot. keep moving every time. if he arrests you for being on public property you've got a case. if he arrests you for taking pictures of trains you've got a case. if he arrests you because make a threat to him or refuse to move you don't have case.

remember, you have the right to trial by a jury of your peers if a prosecutor wishes to bring charges against you. what jury would find a person guilty of simply taking pictures of trains? none. this scenario would never happen because this sort of offence is not a felony. an example of a felony would be intentionally derailing a train. trespassing would be a misdemeanor. misdemeanors are punishable by fine, BUT SHOW ME WHERE TAKING PICTURES OF TRAINS FROM PUBLIC VIEW WHERE THE PERSON IS ON PUBLIC PROPERTY OR ON HIS OR HER OWN PRIVATE PROPERTY IS A MISDEMEANOR!! where in the city, county, state, or federal rules is THAT written!?

also, you can't be arrested for a misdemeanor by an officer or government official if it was only reported to them by a third party. example: train crew/staff sees trespasser then reports it. officer never saw it. officer can't make an arrest. if trespassing were a felony then the officer could make an arrest with out being witness.

Remember: in order for an officer to make an arrest for a misdemeanor 1. offences committed or attempted in an officer's presence 2. home entry for minor offenses.

most of the above was taken from "Criminal Procedure: Law and Practice" 5th edition 2001 Rolando V. del Carmen. (i don't know if need permission to quote this book in a forum but i do so to prove i'm not making these laws up)

THERE MAY BE ERROR IN WHAT I TYPED. do you research and CONSULT YOUR LOCAL LAWS BEFORE DOING ANYTHING. the above laws are NOT intended for use in trying to talk your way out of any situation. they were written for students training to be officers. if you DO get arrested consult with an attorney or lawyer. if an officer is indeed in error it will have to be proven IN A COURT OF LAW and NOT IN THE STREET.

rail fanning is not un-american. burning the american flag is un-american. good luck and happy rail fanning.

signed,
ironhorseman

[cabforward]

you may be right, but for the wrong reason.. a person who is violating no law standing or photographing anything on the public right-of-way has the constitution behind him, no argument..

thing is, this is not what it comes to in front of the judge (if it worst comes to worst).. what it comes to usually, is: disorderly conduct, assault against a police officer, resisting arrest, etc.

the citizen was right the whole time as far as what he was doing before the policeman arrived.. what got him arrested was his attitude, behavior, etc. as he interacted with the policeman as part of the policeman's LAWFUL and PROPER INTERVIEW of the gentleman who was minding his own business and watching / photographing..

as i have stated in an earlier post on this topic, you can be right in your standing / watching / photographing trains from now until you win the lottery.. the problem comes along if you switch from being in the RIGHT when the policman appears to being RIGHTEOUS when he asks ordinary questions: been here long? you like to watch trains? you stand here alone or bring friends with you?
where are you going later?

these are examples of questions a policeman (i prefer not to use the term 'cop', but have no problems with those who do) might ask of someone he is INTERVIEWING (asking non-incriminating questions in a friendly manner). if a train observer answers those friendly questions in a friendly manner as he likely would with anyone in street clothes, a policeman would have no reason to suspect a person of hiding anything or being less than honest about his activities which overlook a railyard..

of course, i have no access to statistics, but i'm betting that of 100 persons who were arrested during the interview as to the whys and wherefores of their standing and watching trains in a legal manner, 99 were arrested due to their responses to the officer's questions and physical confrontation thereafter..

of course, the media get wind of this, and 'hokey-smoke' there's the headline: "cops bust train-watcher, lawyer alleges 'false arrest'".. nobody reads the third paragraph about how it got started, just the headlne..

so, then what? larry king interviews lawyers about civil rights, security for r.rs., profiles of those who bear ill will to our country and r.r.-ing, etc. and for what? for some jack-a who didn't know to just say, 'thank you officer, for being so alert and watchful of our r.rs., i'll tell the railfans i know to expect the law to stop and say 'hello' if they stand here long enough..'