electronic defect detectors

[Anonymous]

I have been told that railroads have electronic sensors that measure bearing temperatures on cars as they pass by. How does this work. How far apart are they? What other kinds of "covert" survielence gizzmos do railroads use? Ron

[Anonymous]

yes, you are talking about "hotbox" detectors. they work by measuring the temp of the bearings as they pass over an infrared scanner. the detector "compares" the temp of each bearing to the next, that way if they are all warm (like rolling along for a long time at high speed) you don't get defects, it's only if one bearing is somewhat warmer than the others that you get a defect. I'm not sure how large the difference has to be though.
they also have dragging equipment detectors, usually integrated with the hotbox detectors,but sometimes they are stand alone.
it depends on the railroad, speed, traffic density, etc, but generally they are about 15-20 miles apart.
There are also high-wide detectors, generally before fixed obstructions, like bridges or tunnels that have close clearances.
The UP is also installing "impact" detectors, which check for wheel defects (flat spots, and spalling). I don't know of any other railroad with these yet, but I'm sure other's will get 'em soon.
Also, as for covert, you can't get any more covert than automatic downloads, which the UP also has on a lot of their newer loco's. At various terminals the loco dumps it's event recorder via radio into a computer, where it's to checked for exceptions to the rules, emergency stops etc. The full system isn't implemented yet, but it's in the rollout stages.
Also, most MOP's (roadformen of engines) have radar guns, and will happily clock you from afar to make sure you're not speeding.

[Justicar]

Yup, my understanding is mostly the same....infrared sensors located between the rails and immediately outside measure wheel and bearing temperatures in order to head off a journal/wheel overheating and breaking causing a derailment. Sticky air brakes, handbrakes left on and mostly indectable to the eye defects in the journal bearings can cause excessive heat build-up. I was not aware that the detectors compared the temps of each of the cars to the rest in order to make a determination of defect.
I'll have to ask around. It is my impression that the detector is simply adjusted to "reject" any temperature exceeding a certain threshold, say 200 degrees. I'm guessing as to the temp because I can't remember what temperature is printed on the side of our temp sticks that we use to verify a hot wheel/journal. In my experience I've only had hot wheels and simply took the handbrake off or cut-out the air brakes on the offending car and high-balled on. A minority of time there are false alarms and I find nothing.

All of our detectors also function as dragging equipment detectors and are about 20 miles apart.
In the US, not sure about Canadian operations, we have two WILD (Wheel Impact Load Detectors) detectors that measure the impact or "thumping" of wheel flat spots on the rail. What is spalling? These things are cursed and are the bane of all existence! The WILD detector on my run "dings" about every other train and all but insures your 12 hour meander to death. Its right at the beginning of the run and usually drops your speed from 40 down to 25...and in some cases 20mph. Not only are you taking about twice as long to get there as normal but you are much more likely to be held for faster moving opposing trains and for sure anything of a hot and intermodal nature will run around you. Then, if the train is destined beyond St Paul yard you get to set the WILD cars out sometimes having to run around your train if they're near your rear end.
Such fun!

We don't have the auto downloads (AFAIK) but our Road Foreman make use of their radar guns. A potential surveillance device is our AEI readers.
These AEI sites scattered all over the place and more numerous than hotbox detectors read the AEI tags on the cars, locos and equipment generating train lists, tracking and other stuff. Well, these things also measure beginning, ending and average speed of the train. I've never heard of them being used against a crew but if they're accurate I can easily see it happening.

I do know that the time a train passed an AEI reader was used against a crew who was illegally reporting off duty while still on the train and performing service. A violation of FRA Hours of Service Law is serious....espcially, documented ones.

[Anonymous]

yes, you are right, there is a certain upper maximum on the temp, it's pretty high, I think our temp sticks are 200 or 250. But since a roller bearing can fail very quickly they also compare to the other bearings in an attempt to catch 'em before they get to melt down.
Those wild's are just like our impact detectors, I didn't know if anyone else had 'em yet or not. I guess they do. And yep, they are a royal pain in the you know what. Just about every eastbound grain train that goes over the one on our line (just east of Dalhart Tx) has bad orders to set out here, and like yours if the defect is bad enough they restrict your speed or you have to set it out immediately. Spalling is very similar (at least in sound but instead of a thumpa thumpa, its more of a growl) to a flat wheel, but the tread of the wheel itself is kindof falling off, it won't be flat, just a punch of "pits" on the tread of the wheel.
I forgot all about the AEI scanners, ours do the same thing, what time started by, end by, how fast etc, they completely slipped my mind.
Also, if they wanted to, quite a few of our engines have GPS equipment on 'em, so they can track them that way.
Also, some auto racks and refers have GPS on them too.

[Justicar]

Ha, not even sure I still have a temp stick in my grip anymore. They seem to be practically obsolete with detectors nowdays. I think if I got dinged with a hotbox and felt the heat with my hand I'd just set it out and go on with life.
I've dealt with enough sticking brakes that I have a good idea what temp is normal and what isn't. No sense in taking any chances with one of those.

When they first installed our impact detectors the "plan" called for each train to set-out at this designated house track and our wayfreight would come along and pick them up on a regular basis. A couple problems they didn't anticipate...one, every other train stopping on a single track main for an hour or two to set out really puts the screws to everyone else and second, the wayfreight becomes a 20 mph, or slower, train every day of the week thereby insuring customers not being switched and relief crews daily....not to mention the relief crews for all the trains that had to sit and wait for the trains ahead setting out bad orders. Now they slow you down and you set them off at the next yard (90 miles). Better, but still crazy if you ask me.

My big question is how much damage are these "bad" wheels causing? I suppose I'll never know but it just seems curious how these trains out of Canada travel for hundreds of miles thumping all the way, wrecking havoc on rail, equipment and small children, and they aren't a problem til they get on my train and I have to deal with them.

Rumour has it that a new impact detector is to be installed near Minot, ND at the Canadian border.
Thank the Lord!

I've kinda wondered how wheels become flat. I can drag empties back and forth in the yard all day because I'm too lazy to take the handbrakes off and put em back on and make really nice ones.
Is that the culprit? Customers are really hard on cars, especially when they try to move them around with front end loaders pushing the ends of the cars and bending nearly everything...handbrakes, grabirons, ladders, etc.
Wouldn't be surprised if they don't take handbrakes off either.

[Jackflash]

Let me add my two cents worth about the wheel detectors (Flat Spots) most times after a hit a car inspector will check the wheel sets that are suppose to be bad, 9 times out of 10 the inspector will anounce that there is nothing wrong with the wheel, now this is not a lazy inspector, there are five different men doing the inspection, (different trains, different days, ect). Also, sometimes, doing a roll by the conductor will notice a car with flat spots banging the rail, but guess what, the detector didnt hit on that one, it got one 30 cars away that when it gets to the conductor its not banging
the rail (and later a inspector will say there isnt anything wrong with it). Go guess.

[cabforward]

does a crew's run look bad if they are hampered by eqpt. failure (hotboxes, etc.)? if a run loses time due to a set-out or any other reason (restricted speed, etc.) is there a problem when the situation is given to the next higher-up?

it reads like the crew is upset (and rightly so) over set-outs and false alarms triggered by trackside detectors. but this is noone's fault, especially the guys who caught it on their run. noone appreciates being behind schedule and getting home late, but what else can be done? it's like being stuck in traffic on the way home.. the wife is cooking sirloin steak and apple pie, but traffic is traffic and everybody's waiting the same amount of time, why sweat it? somedays you beat the bear and somedays the bear beats you..

the crew is just doing their job: detecting problems, reporting them, following orders about reduced speed, setting-out as instructed.. besdes getting off late, are crews p-o'd about these situations for other reasons? do dispatchers, yardmasters, supervisors give crews a hard time because they are late arriving at a destination?

if a crew is stopped for a malfunction at a junction and block other trains' access, do they get black marks for this?

i am not familiar with the r.r. profession, and so i ask foolish questions.. the mood of the contributors on this topic is irritation at the failure of eqpt. and the delay of their run.. i am wondering if their experiences on the road get them write-ups from bosses?

[Jackflash]

Cant speak for everywhere, but my experence is no
there is not anything said to a crew who finds a
bad order car, or has other problems on line of road, but dont just make things up, in order to get overtime, you want to be professional about it
jackflash

[wabash1]

Nobody gets black marks against them unless they are the crew that every trip something goes wrong. always finding something wrong or the detector always gets them. or the train seems to go into emergency some how.

what does happen is if you are close to holding up a hot intermodel but running good and the detector gets you. most generally your run is done. you will be delayed until the other trains get by then you have the railroad to your self this might make you 2 hrs later getting home. and a cold supper. (not a suprise).