Assigning trains and consists to them

[Junctionfan]

How do the railroads know when to assign another train to an existing route and when to send certain cars to them if there is no definate scheduling?

For example, if a particular car going from Toronto to Chicago is switched at 3:00pm and into the yard at 3:40pm but gets put onto a 135 car train leaving at 8:00pm instead of a 6:30pm 78 car train.

What kind of factors need to be considered in that kind of operational set up related and unrelated to the above example?

[Big_Boy_4005]

I would think they would base it on increased car counts heading to any destination.

Say you normally have around 100 cars per day going to Chicago, then suddenly you start getting 130 to 150 cars per day. At some point the yard starts to get jammed up, and an extra train needs to be sent. Maybe one extra every 2 or 3 days, until the traffic bubble has passed. If it doesn't pass the train could be put into the regular plan. It probably works the same with decreasing traffic levels, and removing trains.

[oltmannd]

Generally, you have blocking system that assigns a car to a block at a classification point. The blocking system knows the car's final on-line destination and will assign it to a block accordingly. The train service plan tells which trains carry what blocks.

The RR's service design group is the one responsible for keeping the plan tuned up so that the train plan is efficient and trains do not get oversubscribed.

However, traffic volumes can vary a great deal in the short term. When a particular outbound train is oversubscribed, you have couple of choices. Run an extra or hold the cars for the next ride (many times, the next day's train). Running an extra is an expensive proposition. Finding a crew and power can be problematic, as well. Leaving the cars for tomorrow in the hopes you have room for all the cars then doesn't protect the service commitment you may have and flies in the face of the "scheduled RR" concept.

Ideally, you'd like to be able to predict these traffic "blobs" a day in advance or so, so that you could postion enough power and be sure you have a crew in order to run the extra ahead of the scheduled train and keep your service commitments.

In the "old days", some RRs ran a "tonnage" philosophy. That was you would run the train only when the tonnage reached a certain level. There was no commercial train schedule. If tonnage only accumulated so that the train ran every day and a half, so be it.

[Junctionfan]

Well I have seen a couple of time, CN running aluminum ingot cars loaded on a Chicago bound intermodal and the odd time even some boxcars on the Halifax to Chicago intermodal (different intermodal).

CN seems to fiddle with their trains until they believe it works. For example, train 422 our region's supply train (Port Robinson to Toronto Mac Millan Yard) used to take frames from the Dana plant and head west but now 331 (Port Robinson to Sarnia) takes them but continues to Sarnia with them. That would mean that they would have had to drop them off at Aldershot before heading toward Mac Millan Yard for a Stratroy Sub bound train.

Now I get specific about that because those large woodchip like debris cars carrying debris from Florida now heads on train 331 but used to be on 422 however, it sometimes comes on different trains that come earlier. Now as far as I know, debris would not be considered a priority and likely the customer wouldn't pay for it to be so the scheduling seems very to be played by ear at times.

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

Well I have seen a couple of time, CN running aluminum ingot cars loaded on a Chicago bound intermodal and the odd time even some boxcars on the Halifax to Chicago intermodal (different intermodal).

CN seems to fiddle with their trains until they believe it works. For example, train 422 our region's supply train (Port Robinson to Toronto Mac Millan Yard) used to take frames from the Dana plant and head west but now 331 (Port Robinson to Sarnia) takes them but continues to Sarnia with them. That would mean that they would have had to drop them off at Aldershot before heading toward Mac Millan Yard for a Stratroy Sub bound train.

Now I get specific about that because those large woodchip like debris cars carrying debris from Florida now heads on train 331 but used to be on 422 however, it sometimes comes on different trains that come earlier. Now as far as I know, debris would not be considered a priority and likely the customer wouldn't pay for it to be so the scheduling seems very to be played by ear at times.

Perhaps CN isn't quite the ultimate scheduled RR they tell everyone they are?

(Actually, the variability of how some of the traffic is likely in reaction to irregular performance of their interchange partners, and perhaps, on line shippers.)

As for the debris traffic - why does FL ship debris to Canada?

Even low value traffic gets "scheduled" on a scheduled RR. Customer's still get ETAs for their traffic regardless whether they have service comitments in their contract or not.

[MP173]

The whole "scheduled railroad" concept is fascinating to me.

As many of you know, I listen in to two local railroads (NS and CN) on my scanner. NS runs a very tight operation, with their trains loosely (within an hour or so) adhering to what I would consider a schedule. I can almost always count on NS 307 coming thru town between 6 and 8pm.

CN, on the other hand does not seem to hold their trains to a tight schedule. For instance, their train 391 (Toronto to Glenn Yard) can show up at nearly anytime in the afternoon or into the early night...noon til 9pm.

I would like to see an article or a discussion here about what a scheduled railroad is and how schedules are determined, including blocking assignments, etc.

Every once in a while I will hear an extra on the NS, but I still recall a 177 which ran about a month ago with 169 cars. If there was ever a candidate for an extra, that would have been it.

I would think the problem with assigning a new train would be the initial costs involved in running a less than desirable train...say a manifest with only 30 or so cars. The entire sequence of determining when you can institute a new run based on volume, revenue, break even, etc. would be an interesting discussion. Perhaps Bob or some of the other marketing types can jump in on this.

ed

[Junctionfan]

I know idea why anybody would want debris. My only thought is that a landfill is making money off of it such as they would make from tra***rains.

As far as CN goes, the only train that I know are rather consistant is roadrailer traffic but that is because it is unit and as far as I know, is one customer. The fact it is NS interchange traffic and Triple Crown is a subsidiary is likely another reason why CN has to keep it on-time as best they can.

Some manifest trains are often on time. When 231 ran (Aldershot to Buffalo Frontier Yard), it always ran between 10:00am to 12:30pm but then again, the consist was smaller and seemed to be few in customers-maybe 12 at most. However, when 334 ran (Buffalo Bison to Toronto), CN ran it generally the same time and had many customers and up to 160 cars but again, the NS connection seems to have had something to do with it as it originated in Allentown and likely NS would hurry CN out of the yard to make room for whatever else was coming.

[TheS.P.caboose]

Sometimes the railroads will send a train when it gets to a certain tonnage. With any cars left over they'll divide it up into a second section of the first train.

[Junctionfan]

I can see that. Also, awhile back, CN train 338 was so long (consist assignment), that it ran twice that day. Does anybody know of other trains that have done that?

[waltersrails]

Thanks for the topic was wondering this myself. i go and see ns yard work and don't understand have what there doing with there cars. I have a better understanding know thanks.

[dehusman]

Virtually every railroad operates its trains on a schedule. Its just that they are not time table schedules like in steam era days.

When a car comes into a yard the computer matches it up with an outbound train or block and the car is scheduled to the outbound train. The MP and subsequent merged roads have had car scheduling since the 1970's. As soon as a car is billed or interchanged on the MP/UP the computer generates a trip plan for the car and it will display every train it will be on on its entire trip across the UP. With some of the EDI with other roads it will even generate a tenative trip plan when billed on a connecting carrier. As the car makes its way across the railroad and makes, misses or changes connections the trip plan and scheduleing dynamically change. So based on that the UP can look out 2-3 days in advance and tell about how many cars will be on each train and passing through each yard (the accuracy can vary depending on how many cars are recieved in interchange and billed by customers) and make adjustments such as running an extra if there are too many cars or combining trains or annuling them if there are too few.

Dave H.

[PNWRMNM]

It is a balancing act. You want to run tonnage trains on time. Then life happens, things go wrong.

Your examples illustrate that different railroads have differing degrees of operating discipline. I think NS has figured out that for manifest, or carload, traffic slow irregular service means you can only sell price so your rates will be low. If you produce quality service, and prove it for an extended period, a year or two probably, then you can raise your rates because you have increased the value of your service.

The cost impact of better service is still a matter of debate however. I think NS has figured out how to give better service at not much more cost. To do it you have to have some "excess" power, crews, and yard capacity as compared to the hold for tonnage model.

If you evaluate an operating officer on just his labor budget he will hold for tonnage and service will suffer. If you evaluate on the cost of labor and equipment, you encourage a scheduled railroad and fluid terminals. Car hire is a big controllable cost but many operating officers have been taught by the system to ignore it which is a formula for suboptimization on costs, let alone considering revenue which is somebody else's department. Profit is an even higher and unknown realm.

This is not a knock on operating officers. They are responding to the system designed and implemented by top management. The system is a knock on the Persident and his staff for rewarding "wrong" behavior.

Mac

This issue was hinted at in the recent article about CSX.

Mac

[Junctionfan]

I think CN does try to keep on a schedule. A friend of mine is a retired dispatcher and sometimes calls them up for a line up of things to come.

I don't think that would be possible if there wasn't some kind of a schedule.

[oltmannd]

Mac and Dave-

Excellent points!

Car trip plans are a hot topic these days. Measuring the actual car movement against the plan and trying to close the gap is the goal these days.

The labor budget vs. fixed operating plan is also an interesting topic. Too often the labor budget comes out to the finance dept based on last year's performance and this years budget goal while the operating plan comes out transportation staff based on traffic levels and service commitments- each with little regard for the other. Often it is the poor line supervisor who's told to "make it work!"

[MP173]

Dave and Mac:

Excellent discussions. The Trains article on CSX really did point out that NS has achieved a model for moving the carload freight, thru the use of a consultant and that CSX seems to be trying to catchup with the hiring of the same consulting group.

No doubt that today's information data gives operations and marketing people the power to slice and dice to come up with optimal pricing/service matrix. It would be fascinating to take a look inside a marketing department and see how they work.

ed

[route_rock]

I can call for a lineup but it usually falls back BNSF is supposedly scheduled. We have windows of when a train may run. Its called your guess is as good as mine. I honestly dont know some days how we make any friends on Z,P,and Q trains some times. I see a delay of 44 hours on one of them I just go "wow" Saw a coal train on the board that was 256 hours late!

[dehusman]

Coal train schedules aren't that important since bulk trains operate like a big conveyor belt . While being OT or late isn't that important, the running times are important since that allows the downline events to be forecast ( like when you need a crew, when it will get to the plant, when it will get to a yard or junction).

There are a several schools of thought on how to run trains. One way is to schedule a network of trains and then run the trains on time with whatever cars are available. You run every train every day to keep the power and crews in cycle, regardless of train size. Another way is to schedule the cars to the trains and the train doesn't run until it gets the scheduled cars. The other method is to set a train size and then when you get a "critical mass" of cars you run the train.

Dave H.

[Paul Milenkovic]

I guess the airlines are not immune from this. I read that when, say American, has a DC-10 (maybe a bad example -- they used to fly DC-10's but I don't know what replaced them), they use computer optimization to figure out which flights this one airplane gets assigned to. A particular DC-10 doesn't just shuttle back and forth between New York and LA -- it plies a complicated route so that it is kept in service and is able to serve the traffic demand on different route segments. The airline passengers don't know any of this -- they are just looking for a plane to be available for their scheduled flight.

The story I heard is that they are so heavily optimized that when something happens -- bad weather, mechanical problem, whatever, that really gums up their entire network in terms of cascading missed connections and not having planes. I guess you have to have some level of reserve in such a system, and deciding on an economic level of reserve is perhaps one of those research questions for the folks doing optimization.