Misc R.R. Revenue

[edblysard]

Hey, Wabash,
Well, its was like that, till last year. The FRA decided that besides the trains we make up for the member lines, our trains going to and from industries fall within the initating terminal rule, and when we pull industries and make up a train to bring back to or yard, the point we couple it all up becomes the initating terminal, even though we may be out in the weeds. Slap a guage on the rear, get a reading, do a set and release, then set em up and walk it. Even though all of our trackage is FRA exempted to yard track status, they, (FRA) decided our running rail should be treated just like main line rail.

[edblysard]

Hi, gdc, and others,
In response to the extended load issue, we would charge, and often do. We too have one customer, a overseas shipper, who recieves odd and large loads, turbines, huge pre-fab beams and frames, that sort of thing. Their "track" or spot point is between a warehouse and the dock at the ship channel. They require some loads face one way, some the other, depending on how the ship is docked, and we often do not find out about it till we get there. Adding to the fun, their track is a stub track, only about 50 feet long, and has no bumper at the end, the rail just ends in concrete road. Due to the fact no wye is available anywhere near, the only option is to cut off the idler, set the idler over, run around it, pick it up, run around the load, couple up and spot it. Of coures the idler will not fit, so we either stash it somewhere where we can pick it up later, or take it back to the yard. Again in reference to an inexperience crew, this shipper has a habit of being on site when we arrive, and often talks the "new" crews into doing all of this for free. He knows already if the load is High/Wide, or oversized, and our officers informed us that he can instruct the people who load the cars to place the load so as to prevent the problem, as his business is the point of origin, but refuses to do so.
As to intraplant moves, most of the larger facilities along the ship channel have their own switch engines and crews. Most of the time, they do moves within their plant, and leave their pulls in a specific track, where we can pull their outbounds and leave their inbounds. Some have several such tracks. This would be a straight switch move, no additional charge. If on the other hand, we have to change the order of the cars, or cut anyone out a spot it somewhere within the confines of the plant, thats a seperate switch. Dur to the fact that often, these crews work only a 9 to five shift as contract workers, but the petrochemical industries are a 24hr a day busines, and things change rapidly, we can be asked to do switching within the plant, which we do, for a fee.
Keep in mind that the Houston ship channel industrial area is 90 miles of side by side refineries and related industries, and space is at such a preimun that some tracks serve several purposes, and traffic volume is high. We work some of the plants three times a day, 100 cars at a time.

[edblysard]

Hi Tim, Sure.
We use MK1500D switchers. I know, you never heard of them. Thats because as far as I know, only one order was built. #s 9601 thru 9624 were built for the PTRA, and 9625 thru 9630 were for the now defunct HBT, (houston belt and terminal) as a joint order from Morrison Knudeson, MK, which became Boisie Locomotive, which is now owned by EMD. The belt locos went to BNSF when they took over their part of the belt. Boisie also built MK6201, a six axled switch engine,(SD 40 chop job) and the 1501, also a MK1500, but AC traction motors. Both of these are demo/lease units. All the MK1500 are B-B units, meaning 4 axles per truck, each axle powered.
As to how we see out of the Big motors, depends on the make of engine, and what your doing. Backing up, the engineer most often watches a crew member who is on the rear, giving hand signals. When using raido signals, where he looks is up to him, as he responds to whats said, not what he sees. As a safety precaution, on of the most important rules from the GCOR rule 5.3.7 states "radio communication for backing or shoving movements must specify the direction and distance to be travled, and must be acknowledged when distance specified is more that four cars", futhermore, " movement must stop within half of the distance specified unless additional instruction are received".
If you tell your engineer to back up ten cars, he will repeat the instructions, and begin to back up.If he dosnt hear for you after he travels appox 5 car lengths, he will stop.
This keeps yofrom shoving out of a track, or through a bumper, ect. As a added benifit, what if your raido failed, or you fall off the train, the train will stop reguardless.
If you go to PTRA on your search function, you can find a nice series of photos, showing the MK1500D we use. They have great visibility forward and back. At one time, the most often seen switch motors were EMD SW6, SW9 and Mp15s. These followed the design of long hood forward, due to the idea that any accident/collision, the crew has the engine and all that hood between them and the wreck. With the MKs, the concept that improved visibility would prevent such accident, so the short hood is forward. These things have huge front windshields, oversized door glass and side windows, and big rear windshields. Keep in mind that most industrial track is very light, 90lbs or less, and have very sharp curves, which prohibit six axle motors from even entering the place, as the track wouldnt support the weight of a road unit, and the degree of curves would derail the six axle truck, as the six axle truch dosnt flex and the center wheel will bind up, laying the rail over, or ridding up over the rail.
If you can find one, try getting a copy of the GCOR, general code of operating rules, the rule book everyone reffers to. It is a collection of rules, set forth by a safety committiee made up of employees from most of the railroads and the FRA. It governs just about every breath railroaders take. Not all railroads follow it, but every class 1, short lines and terminal roads have adopted it as their rule book, supplemented by their timetables, which often take prescedence. Try at a hobby shop that caters to model railroaders, or talk to some of you railroad friends. The last issue was the fourth issue, effective april 2nd, 2000.
Tell you what tim, to keep this forum less crowded, if you would like, e-mail me at [e-mail].
Ed

[Anonymous]

Tim,
Think nothing of it...you're not a bother. One of the greatest gifts we can give each other is sharing knowledge. One of my early mentors once told me that when I had been on the railroad 30 years, I could find someone who had been there a month who could tell me something about it I didn't know. Humbling, but true. As long as you want to know, I'll try to answer. gdc

[Anonymous]

Ed, I looked up that engine. In the article I read it mentioned that they were expirimenting with natural gas to fuel them.Did your railroad recieve any of them?
TIM A

[Anonymous]

Guy's, how do you know what cars go were when you are switching? Do you have a computer terminal in your engines that tell you?
TIM A

[edblysard]

Tim,
No natural gas, except the kind switchmen produce on their own. All of the ports motors are diesiel/electric, direct current traction motors. BN had a pair of SD40 converted, along with a tank car as a tender. LPG was on of the fule choices.
ED

[edblysard]

Hi Tim,
Well it depends. In the yard, we have switch list, basically a sheet of paper, with the track number to be switched at the top, a list in decending order north to south here at the port, on the left, then the cars and their reporting numbers, an abreviation as to type of car, loaded or empty and then the track it goes to. See below

Track 10
cars listed N to S

1 RBOX 12345 Lbx 4
2 UTLX6789 Etk 20
3 ECTX LH

And if the cars contained a hazardous material, of was a wide load or shiftable load a futher notation would be included.
As to road jobs, they would have a train sheet, listing the train number, a sequential listing of the cars from the head end to the rear. Each entry would include the cars placement in the train, 1 thru whatever, the cars number, a description of the contents of the car, the cars destination, hazmat information, and any special
handling instruction, (Set out at...ect).Yes, all of that info on each car, so a train sheet can end up as thick a hardbound book. If your a train watcher, stop at a yard and look around the switching lead, switchmen are not the neatest bunch of guys, and you will find a switch list laying around. Pick it up and study it, lots of info in a small space.
ED

[edblysard]

Just to let everyone know, gdc is giving clear, consise and very accurate info. Dont know if he ended up as a officer on his road, but would bet he did. His bona-fides may have mentioned somewhere else and I missed them, but you cant go to far wrong listening to this guy...

[Anonymous]

I agree, he's taught me alot!! gdc is another one who needs to sit down and write a book!!
TIM A

[Anonymous]

Thank you Ed your right that was the way it was a year ago thanks to the FRA it is not that way any more when ever the train leaves the terminal it must have 100% of the breaks working but after the train leaves the terminal they can have 80% of them working as per the FRA. Rodney

[wabash1]

isnt that what i said , and i never seen a memo on the brake test for trains going 15 miles or less doing a initail terminal test. all i know is that i still do a set conductor walks them and gets on the head end. then we leave on track warrent of course.

[wabash1]

well you are almost right. i learned from a ole head engineer that the way you tell the front of a engine. when the engineer is sitting in the seat and his right arm is out the window the direction he is looking is consider the front. on the ns we still run short hood out( yuk). but that may not be the front of the engine. in most cases the older units are still consider long hood front.sd 40 gp 38s alot of the 6000 series units.

[Anonymous]

Right you are J. Some of the older units on NS are considered long-end lead. All of the NS SD40-2's from N&W and Southern heritage are set up that way. Additionally, Southern preferred high short ends right up to the 1982 merger and I'm sure many of the former Southern engineers still do. On the N&W, I think it was the second order of SD40-2's that optioned for the low short end, but were still set up to be long-end lead. The logic of the Motive Power Department was that it permitted the units to be bi-directional with only one control stand. So if the unit was operating short end lead, the engineer was on the left side, but could see signals, signs, etc over the short end. Additionally, the control stand was set parallel to the engineers seat to accomodate short end lead and not cause the engineer to sit in an awkward position. As for those who are not in railroad service, The quickest was to tell what is the front is to notice the "F" stenciled or painted on one end or the other. Obviously, "F" stands for Front. In the last 5 years or so, new NS locomotives are set up for short-end lead with low noses. Evolution must go on!!!! Thank you for your input! gdc

[Anonymous]

Ed,
Thank you and Tim for the kind words. I hadn't plannnd a bio, but your inkling is correct. I hired out on the N&W as a fireman, but soon couldn't hold a job because that was just a few months after, those jobs were eliminated. A kind and caring division superintendent found me a clerical job in the Transportation Department in Roanoke. Ultimately, I ended up as a salaried employee in what could be best described as higher middle management. During the 35 years I was with NS, for about 10, part of my responsibilities were as a member of an ad hoc committee to the Eastern Railroad Association. Upon request, we would review applications from customers who switched their own facilities for switching allowances under Ex Parte 104. This acquainted me with numerous facilities where that is done. Again, thank you for the kind words...it gives me the perfect introduction to the discussion on customer switched intraplant operations.

[Anonymous]

Ed had already described some of what customer switched facilities are like. It's more closely associated with large customers, such as steel mills, chemical plants, automobile assembly plants, paper mills, etc. But it's not limited to that. Anyone with a trackmobile or an end loader equipped with a knuckle can switch their own cars. Some even have electric car movers, known as mules, that move cars by shoving their ends from an adjacent track. A common example of that would be at the Panama Canal locks where ships are towed through. Coal transloading facilties sometimes uses these to dumpers, stackers, etc.
More than any though, customer switching was much more conventional. You could see a strange variety of motive power, some of it ancient, some of it not kept up so well, others done very professionally and to the same standards as the carriers. One of the most professional and well-run plant operations I ever saw was Ford Motor Company's rail facility at the Rouge plant in Dearborn, Michigan. They had more locomotives and daily crew starts than one of the serving carriers.
An important thing to remember about these the rail facilities is that their aim is to serve the plants' needs first and rail operations second. Consequently, tracks sometimes went places and crossed each other in patterns that would leave you scratching your head. Also, many of the safety rules which apply to carriers did not apply to plant operations, simply because they are not under the auspices of rail regulations. For instance, steel mills use cars that would not be permitted on any of the railroads, simply because they never leave the plant and those working with them are familiar with their vagaries. To me, that logic is grainy, but that's how it is. I've seen gons the were bulged so much that they wouldn't pass on adjacent tracks. Other types of cars that would not leave a facility are those used in plant processes, such as ingot buggies, hot metal cars, charging buggies, etc., all handled by plant crews.
One plant we visited had a narrow guage (3Foot) system within it. This was used strictly for intraplant convenience. They even had at-grade crossings with the standard guage. Their motive power were 3 or 4 Plymouth industrial locomotives...quaint but not germane to carrier responsibilites.
The Eastern Railroad Association recognized that if a customer was switching their own facility, they were, in essense, being doubled charged for placing and pulling. The customer paid for it once in line haul rates and again in the cost of their own crews. It further opined that if the customer crews were doing what a carrier crew could do, the customer was entitled a refund on that part of their cost. The parameters were, that for a customer switching to be eligible, it must be practical, feasible and safe for a carrier crew to do the same work. There's a lot more that could be said on this sub topic alone, but once again the post is getting long.
This assignment took me to a lot of places I would not have ordinarily gone and showed me things I would not have ordinarily seen. It was a great education and experience. Once, we were invited aboard the Edmund Fitzgerald at Zug Island. He was unloading ore at Great Lakes Steel. Lakers are masculine and ocean going vessels are feminine, I'm told. It wasn't until much later, even after the wreck, that I realized what a distinct experience that was.
Next post, we'll talk about the other types of switching. Tim, has all this information staggered you yet? Again, thanks for the kind words. Have a safe day! Later...gdc

[Anonymous]

Two more posts on switching, then we can move on if need be. We've been through a pretty involved discussion of intraplant switching. The other types of industry switching may be just as involved, but with the same concerns already mentioned. Maybe a shorter post that will define the other types.
Interplant: Switching between two separate industrys without traversing trackage of the carrier. This happens in large facilities and would be in effect if the carrier did the switching.
Intraterminal: Switching between two locations using the trackage of the carrier. For instance, one side of town to the other. It may or may not be to the same customer. A common example of this would be scrap dealers and steel mills or recycling centers. The scrap dealer is independent of the steel mill and loads gons of scrap for the mill's hearth. The distance could be several miles and require more than one crew, or it could be next door, less than a train length away.
Interterminal: This is when two distinct terminals are involved in the move. Most likely, but not necessarily, two carrier are involved which means an interchange. You could have intraplant switching on one or both ends, depending on the customers.
Costs to the customer for these types of switching vary from type to type and the distinction between them becomes blurred sometimes. What is the difference between an intraterminal and interplant switch if the criterion for both is met? What kind of switch is it if while switching a customer's spots, it is necessary to back out on the railroad's tracks (the railroad terminology is "tail room") in order to complete the move? Many times the rates used are the result of bargaining between the railroad and the customer. As you can imagine, there have been heated disagreements about which rates are proper. The more you can bargain with a customer, the better, (Duhhhh).
In the next post, let's talk about junction switching. As a preview, that's the situation where a customer is located on one railroad but the car arrived in the same city on another. There's lots to talk about here. Have a safe day. Later...gdc

[Anonymous]

The final type of switching to discuss is what was known to NS as junction switching. This occurs when a railroad other than one involved in the linehaul move of a car serves the customer for another line haul road. For instance, a customer located on NS at Chicago desires to ship a car to Florida to a destination on CSXT. Naturally, NS would prefer to handle the car as far as it could, say to Jacksonville before interchanging it to CSXT. But maybe the customer doesn't want to do that. Maybe the customer believes that the rate is better or the transit time is quicker if CSXT handles the car the whole way. In that case, NS would pull the car and switch it to CSXT at Chicago and not participate in the line haul revenue. Instead, it would receive an amount from CSXT. CSXT would originate the waybill and pay NS an established switching charge which is settled monthly. Cars switched to customers for CSXT by NS would be compared to cars switched to customers for NS by CSXT and an appropriate net settlement determined. If the customer is located within identified switching limits of each road, they would be eligible. Those who are not, the railroad on whose line the customer is located would receive a line haul portion of the revenue. Customer within switching limits are generally defined as those inside the yard limits as marked by a sign and established in tariffs. Junction switching works on a basis of equal reciprocity, in other words, anything within reasonable geographic parity. In the last few years, this has become less common. Switching limits have been redefined or customers are listed as not open to switching.
In situations where the customer has a choice of which road to use, i.e. origin and destination are on the same two roads, but prefers to use the road which does not serve his siding, the tactic has been to increase the switching charge to a ridiculously high amount. Since, ultimately the customer pays the charge, either in a pass through charge or a higher line haul rate, it becomes cheaper for him to choose the railroad without switching. I'm sure this is confusing, so lets look at an example. The customer in Chicago located on NS would like to ship a car to Jacksonville, Florida on CSXT. NS would place a high junction switch charge at the Chicago end so that CSXT would either/lose money on the move or have to pass the cost on to the customer. Meanwhile NS says, I can ship your car all the way to Jacksonville and you can avoid the cost of switching being added into your rate. This will affect customer routing decisions. Of course, customers can be brand loyal and say, "I don't care, I'm still shipping via CSXT", but that's very rare, especially if service in comparable.
That leaves the ball in the court of the various marketing departments...who can out sell who and who has the best deal to offer, rate wide, time wise, etc.
In closing out, what must seem like an endless discussion, there is also absorbed switching. That is junction switching where no charges are passed along to the customer. The line haul carrier just absorbs the cost, considering it included in the line haul rate.
Switching done by terminal railroads is another subject. These railroads generally do not operate at a profit but are owned by the line carriers in the area, a local municipality or a group of on-line shippers. While there may some exceptions, terminal railroads do not share in the line haul revenue. They have miscellaneous charges as well, such as demurrage, intraplant switching, etc. the same as we've covered previously.
Other types of miscellaneous revenue would be demurrage, detention, storage, weighing, diversions and reconsignments just to name a few.
We've discussed a lot of things but have barely touched the subject. In some of the posts here and in other subjects, line haul revenue as well as car hire have been mentioned. These are entirely different matters. Line haul revenue what its name implies, what it costs the shippers to move a car as defined by tariff, contract, multiple car rates, unit train rates, annual volumn rates, etc. Car hire is a different matter all together. It's the cost of having someone else's equipment on your line. It's called Per Diem. The railroad pronounce it as if it were Per Dye-um. But, again, then that's another subject.
I hope that these dialogs have helped you understand the vast complexities involved with railroads and their relationships with each other.
As before, if you have questions or comments, fire away. I'll try to answer them. (Whew)
Everyone have a safe day...gdc

[Anonymous]

I don't if anyone mentioned it but, another way railroads make revenue is by selling off surplus material - ties, rails, etc. Revenue comes from selling surplus rolling stock, locomotives and vehicles or by scraping the worn out equipment and selling the byproducts. The sale of surplus real estate brings revenue as well.

[Anonymous]

Thank you for your input. Leases, equipment sales, interest, investments, etc. are not in the strict definition of revenue. Revenue is money derived from operations. These items are miscellaneous income. gdc