FOIA or Freedom of Infomation Request to the Homewood Fire department to get maps of Marham yard.

[Anonymous]

I dont mean to be a pain in the donkey but the fire department has track maps of Markham Yard . Also so does the Chicago MPO have maps of all the railroad yards. I have FOIAed them and they have refused saying that the maps belong to the railroads. This info is very valuble for historical purposes and if the info(maps) is in the hands of Goverment agencys is it not in turn in the hands of the Public Domain? I guess the anwser might lie in the Question of "If the fire department has floor plans of major private buildings in there office do they have to show them to you?". I will now proceed to duck under my desk and wait for the S to fly...[B)]

[tree68]

Unless Illinois has its own version of FOIA, I believe that law only applies to the Feds.

If the railfan base in Chicago is anything like what I've seen in my area, there are already maps of most Chicago area railroad facilities on-line someplace.

As for the fire department providing any information - that's not the business they are in. They have whatever information they have for a specific purpose (preparation for emergencies), and they are not set up to provide it to anyone (ie, duplicating, etc), even if they did have the wherewithall to do so.

Spend a little time with your search engine of choice and you will likely find just about anything you want about all of these facilities. Read TRAINS - there was an excellent picture of Global III there not long ago. In the meantime, don't get your shorts twisted because someone refused to give you information that is not theirs to give out.

[chad thomas]

peterson6868,
As Larry stated there is a lot of information available on the web, it just takes time to find. Have you tried terraserve or google sat pix and maps? they are usefull for looking at track arangements.

[Anonymous]

This seems to more of a legal question. The track maps were provided to the goverment by the railroad. Once they are in the Goverments hands can they have any say to what happens to them after that? The Track Maps may have more infomation then what is avalible in "Open Sources" such as the Historical Society. Now the Question of if a railroad is a Quasi-Goverment agency may be a open one.
But since railroads have goverment like powers including Eminate Domain and Powers of Arrest for its Railroad Police and can be co-opted into the goverment in time of war the question of if there records should be public is answered by the following exceprt-
"Open Records Decision No. 496
June 23, 1988

Re: Whether certain information made confidential by published rules of the
Federal Interstate Commerce Commission is totally excepted from the Open Records
Act, article 6252-17a, V.T.C.S., or from disclosure under the act pursuant to section
3(a)(1). (RQ-1290)

Honorable James E. Nugent
Chairman
William B. Travis Bldg.
Railroad Commission of Texas
P.O. Drawer 12967
Austin, Texas 78711-2967

Dear Chairman Nugent:

You ask about the public availability under the Texas Open Records Act, article
6252-17a, V.T.C.S., of "waybill samples" provided to the Texas Railroad Commission
by the Interstate Commerce Commission (ICC). A waybill is a document prepared from
the bill of lading contract or shipper's instructions about the disposition of freight. 49
C.F.R. § 1244.1(c). It forms the basis for determining freight charges and interline
settlements. Id. The ICC collects a vast amount of data regarding waybills in its
regulatory efforts. See, e.g., 49 U.S.C. § 10,321. Agency rules expressly make public a
great deal of this information. See 52 Fed. Reg. 12,415, 12,416, (to be codified at 49
C.F.R. § 1244.8(b)(5)). Highly sensitive commercial and financial data is, however,
protected from public disclosure. See 52 Fed. Reg. at 12,416 (to be codified 49 C.F.R.
§ 1244.8(b)(2), (3), (4)).

The ICC promulgated rules governing its procedures on the release of such data.
52 Fed. Reg. 12,415 (April 16, 1987). The "ICC Waybill Sample" is provided to the
states as follows:

Each requesting State may obtain any waybill record pertaining to
traffic that was originated, terminated, interchanged in, or that
passed through its State subject to the same requirements imposed
on federal agencies under paragraphs (b)(2)(i) through (v) of this
section.

52 Fed. Reg. at 12,416 (to be codified at 49 C.F.R. § 1244.8(b)(3)). Paragraphs (b)(2)(i)
through (v) impose the following requirements:

Each requesting Federal agency (including quasi-governmental
agencies) may obtain any waybill record from the ICC Waybill
Sample subject to the following requirements:

(i) The Federal agency shall make the information contained
in the ICC Waybill Sample available only to its employees or those
contractors working on the particular project or study requiring the
waybill data.

(ii) The Federal agency will ensure that railroads and shippers
are afforded the same privilege and protection against disclosure of
the waybill data as the Commission provides.

(iii) The Federal agency will not release any data to the public
unless the data elements are aggregated to contain at least three
shippers and to prevent identification of an individual railroad.

(iv) The Federal agency will refer any requests for waybill data
and accompanying documentation to the ICC for processing and
will so inform the requesting party of such referral to the
Commission.

(v) The Federal agency must sign an agreement annually with
the Commission agreeing to these restrictions. (Emphasis added.)

52 Fed. Reg. at 12,416 (to be codified at 49 C.F.R. § 1244.8(b)(2).

In light of these provisions, you ask the following questions:

1. Do the ICC's rules, insofar as they prescribe procedure for,
and limitations on, the release of waybill data, preempt application
of the Open Records Act, article 6252-17a, either in its entirety or as
an exception under section 3(a)(1) of the act?

2. If the answer to 1. is yes, and if the Commission
subsequently receives a request or requests for this data, may the
Commission refuse to release the data based on the attorney
general's ruling on this issue, or must it, on a case-by-case basis, go
through the procedures outlined in section 7 of the Open Records
Act?

You also suggest that the information at issue is protected under section 3(a)(10) of the
Open Records Act.

As a general rule, all information held by governmental bodies is open unless the
information falls within one of the act's specific exceptions to disclosure. See Attorney
General Opinion JM-672 (1987). Section 3(a)(10) excepts:

trade secrets and commercial or financial information obtained from
a person and privileged or confidential by statute or judicial
decision.

Section 3(a)(10) is patterned after exemption 4 of the Federal Freedom of Information
Act (FOIA), 5 U.S.C. section 552(b)(4), and protects third party interests that are
protected by statute or by judicial decision. Open Records Decision Nos. 494 (1988);
309 (1982); 107 (1975). Section 3(a)(10) consists of two parts: trade secrets, and
commercial or financial information. Different tests are applicable under each part.

In applying section 3(a)(10) to commercial or financial information, open records
decisions rely on federal cases ruling on exemption 4 of the federal act. See, e.g., Open
Records Decision Nos. 494 (1988); 309 (1982). The federal test is as follows:

commercial or financial matter is 'confidential' for purposes of the
exemption if disclosure of the information is likely to have either of
the following effects: 1) to impair the Government's ability to
obtain necessary information in the future; or 2) to cause substantial
harm to the competitive position of the person from whom the
information was obtained. (Emphasis added.)

National Parks and Conservation Association v. Morton, 498 F.2d 765, 770 (D.C. Cir.
1974).

The ICC's rules making certain waybill sample data "confidential" constitute its
decision that the data is protected under exemption 4 of the FOIA. Under the federal act,
each federal agency covered by the FOIA determines the applicability of the act's
exceptions to information held by that agency. See 5 U.S.C. § 552(a)(6)(A). These
federal agency decisions are subject to prioritized judicial review. See 5 U.S.C.
§ 552(a)(4)(B). In contrast, the Texas Open Records Act requires state agencies to
submit particular information to the Texas Attorney General for review to determine
whether the information fits one of the act's exceptions. Art. 6252-17a, § 7. The fact
that information falls within one of the federal act's exceptions does not mean the
information is automatically protected under the Texas Open Records Act. See generally
Attorney General Opinion MW-95 (1979) (the FOIA exceptions apply to federal
agencies, not to state agencies); Open Records Decision No. 124 (1976).

As indicated, however, section 3(a)(10) protects commercial or financial
information if disclosure of the information would impair the agency's ability to obtain
the information in the future. See 49 C.F.R. § 1244.8(b)(3). In light of the ICC's rules
protecting waybill sample data, releasing the protected data to the public would clearly
impair the Railroad Commission's ability to obtain the information in the future.
Consequently, it may be withheld under section 3(a)(10). Because this matter has been
resolved under section 3(a)(10), this decision does not address whether the ICC's rules
protecting certain waybill sample data from disclosure under the federal act either
preempt the state act or constitute "confidentiality" under section 3(a)(1) of the state act.

You also ask whether you must request an attorney general's decision each time a
request is made for waybill sample data. In future cases, if you receive a request under
the Open Records Act for the specific items listed in the ICC's rules, see 52 Fed. Reg. at
12,418, you may rely on this decision to withhold those items. Because the items listed
in the federal rules are explicit and are clearly commercial or financial information on
their face, this office need not actually review the specific data requested.

SUMMARY

Section 3(a)(10) of the Texas Open Records Act, article 6252-
17a, V.T.C.S., protects from required disclosure commercial or
financial data comprising the "waybill sample" of the Interstate
Commerce Commission because release of the data would impair
the Texas Railroad Commission's ability to obtain the information in
the future.

Very truly yours,

Jim Mattox
Attorney General of Texas

Mary Keller
First Assistant Attorney General

Lou McCreary
Executive Assistant Attorney General

Judge Zollie Steakley
Special Assistant Attorney General

Rick Gilpin
Chairman, Opinion Committee

Jennifer S. Riggs
Chief, Open Government Section
of the Opinion Committee

Prepared by Jennifer S. Riggs"
Assistant Attorney General

--Here in the case of waybills the answer was made clear. Or was it?

[dharmon]

What perfect timing....Star Wars is getting ready to come out....and I'm feeling a disturbance in the Force..

[Anonymous]

It seems to me that enabling a rail fan to get a map of a railroad yard is not exactly what the FOIA was established for.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Peterson6868

I dont mean to be a pain in the donkey but the fire department has track maps of Markham Yard . Also so does the Chicago MPO have maps of all the railroad yards. I have FOIAed them and they have refused saying that the maps belong to the railroads. This info is very valuble for historical purposes and if the info(maps) is in the hands of Goverment agencys is it not in turn in the hands of the Public Domain? I guess the anwser might lie in the Question of "If the fire department has floor plans of major private buildings in there office do they have to show them to you?". I will now proceed to duck under my desk and wait for the S to fly...[B)]

Perhaps instead of wasting everyone's time trolling, you should simply read the law pertaining to freedom of information in Illinois.

Try searching out the Illinois Freedom of Information Act. I found it in less than five minutes. Oh, and you are correct, it is a legal question. Oh, and one other thing...hint, hint. You're wrong.

The railroad created the maps. Merely providing them to someone in the government doesn't change that any more than giving someone a copyrighted work gives them ownership of it.

LC

[Anonymous]

There might be a view only clause here.
I remember that some of the stuff in the national archives is view only and that is why somebody got busted with confidentual infomation.

[ajmiller]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

What perfect timing....Star Wars is getting ready to come out....and I'm feeling a disturbance in the Force..

I sense something. A presence I've not felt since...

[Anonymous]

That Burrito that went down with the last beer on the Metra to South Bend.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ajmiller

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

What perfect timing....Star Wars is getting ready to come out....and I'm feeling a disturbance in the Force..

I sense something. A presence I've not felt since...

Unfortunately we're stuck in Episode II here "Attack of the Clones"

[edblysard]

Maybe if we flash froze him in carbonite?

Its just a suggestion...

Ed

[greyhounds]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Peterson6868

That Burrito that went down with the last beer on the Metra to South Bend.

1) Metra doesn't go to South Bend (That's a map that is available to you.)

2) You don't have any right to obtain information on industrial facilities when that information was given to public safety agencies so they could protect the lives of railroad workers, their own lives, and the property of the railroad companies and their customers. It was not given to the Homewood Fire Department to assist your railfan activities.

3) And yes, I'm confident giving you that information would be very dangerous.

[ajmiller]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

QUOTE: Originally posted by ajmiller

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

What perfect timing....Star Wars is getting ready to come out....and I'm feeling a disturbance in the Force..

I sense something. A presence I've not felt since...

Unfortunately we're stuck in Episode II here "Attack of the Clones"

It is unfortunate. I can't remember a single good quote from either Episode I or II. Except maybe Qui-Gon to Obi-Wan in reference to Anakin in Episode I: "Check his midichlorian count. Is it bigger than mine?" or something like that.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by greyhounds

3) And yes, I'm confident giving you that information would be very dangerous.

and giving him access to a computer, if not equally as dangerous runs a close second.


Peterson...6868.....I think that may have been Detective_Cinderdick's phone number...

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

QUOTE: Originally posted by greyhounds

3) And yes, I'm confident giving you that information would be very dangerous.

and giving him access to a computer, if not equally as dangerous runs a close second.


Peterson...6868.....I think that may have been Detective_Cinderdick's phone number...

Maybe it is the name of the psycho ward and his room number.

[ajmiller]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

QUOTE: Originally posted by greyhounds

3) And yes, I'm confident giving you that information would be very dangerous.

and giving him access to a computer, if not equally as dangerous runs a close second.


Peterson...6868.....I think that may have been Detective_Cinderdick's phone number...

Maybe it is the name of the psycho ward and his room number.

Hmmm 4 digits. It's obviously his ATM PIN number.

[mudchicken]

Peterson6868:

Railfanning is NOT nor will it be a legitimate reason under FOIA to ask for mapping of a private industry required to assemble a safety action plan per FRA, OSHA and NFPA guidelines. As a former office engineer for a Class I, I have seen plenty of ludicrous attempts to gain access to these type of files and maps.Quit wasting their time & resources. If you are as callous as many of those before you, you probably want it for free and then want help in interpreting what the map says anyhow. Terraserver or its equivilent is more than adequate. Don't strain the relationship between a railroad operating department and an emergency services agency especially now.

GO AWAY!

[tree68]

I need to get in the habit of looking UNDER the bridge...

You know we're in trouble when someone has spent more time looking for methods to obtain information than they have looking for the information - then blame whoever they asked for the information for not providing it for them when they aren't entitled to it in the first place.

Right on the formula.

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by greyhounds

QUOTE: Originally posted by Peterson6868

That Burrito that went down with the last beer on the Metra to South Bend.

1) Metra doesn't go to South Bend (That's a map that is available to you.)

2) You don't have any right to obtain information on industrial facilities when that information was given to public safety agencies so they could protect the lives of railroad workers, their own lives, and the property of the railroad companies and their customers. It was not given to the Homewood Fire Department to assist your railfan activities.

3) And yes, I'm confident giving you that information would be very dangerous.

Just for the record, under my reading of the FOIA, Greyhounds is the one who got it right as to why he can't view it. I didn't read it closely, but the exception to which he refers is clearly listed.

Gabe

P.S. Darn it, I wanted to be the one to say the Metra doesn't got to South Bend, but the South Shore still does--a jewel of railroading that doesn't get nearly enough press.

[locomutt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

I need to get in the habit of looking UNDER the bridge...

You know we're in trouble when someone has spent more time looking for methods to obtain information than they have looking for the information - then blame whoever they asked for the information for not providing it for them when they aren't entitled to it in the first place.

Right on the formula.

Are you meaning looking for 'Trolls',instead of 'Tolls' ???[}:)]