Trains of the future...

[Anonymous]

I apologize in advance if someone's already written about this topic...
I was just wondering what trains might appear and be like in say thirty or forty years from now - or if they'll even exist anymore at all...
When I was a kid, I would have never imagined that there would be such a thing as a AC 4400 CW, or a P-42. Back then the most modern engines were GP-40s and 50s.
If you ask me, I think they'll be real streamlined, and closely resemble the Amtrak P-42 as far as the engines go. Rolling stock may be made longer and more uniformed. Oh well. That's just my shot in the dark opinion.

What do you folks think ?.

trainluver1

[ValorStorm]

...I think I just got two stars. YESSSSSSS!!!!!!!

Anyhoo, we can expect locomotives & freight cars in 30-40 years to look not unlike the way they do now. But locomotives will likely be fuel cell powered (or maybe "Mr. Fusion"). Air brakes SHOULD be replaced by all-electric brakes by then. "Yes, trainluver1, there is a Santa Claus." And there will be railroading in the future thanx to two things: Coal & grain.

[MP57313]

I do think there will be trains 30-40 years in the future. The highway infrstructure would not be able to realistically carry all the freight (at least the heavy stuff).

Some main lines will get even busier, and some secondary lines will disappear.

I don't think equipment will look that much different, but alternative fuels, lubricants, power sources will probably play a bigger role. Fossil fuels (diesel) will still be used but at some point the cost will be too high to use it exclusively.

[Anonymous]

In watching the price of oil over the last 30 years, it become evident that in 30-40 years it's price will become to much. that being said, railroads will be forced to look at alternatives that don't use oil based products. this means that lubercation wiould have to be at a minimal, and the only thing that could be cost effective and oil free (relatively) would be the Maglev system.

Thus in 30-40 years when oil prices are to high for railroads to handle, they will be forced to switch to a maglev system. there are 2 schools of this in thought now, the transistion trains, where two maglev rails are mounted along side the current rails on the ground and the train will be modified to use the system, but still use wheels. the final system is one where the entire train loses it's wheels and that is the one the governement is pushing for now.

[daveklepper]

I don't think it will be maglev. You have to use energy to lift the train as well as propel it, and the advantages of less friction come into play only at very high speeds.

[Modelcar]

...Steel wheel on steel rail and motive power still by oil or electricity {from our own coal possibly}, and little streamlining on engines....similar to current design.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

I don't think it will be maglev. You have to use energy to lift the train as well as propel it, and the advantages of less friction come into play only at very high speeds.

nuclear power is not feasible, but they are working on Gaseous fission reactor, with limited successes. this will esencially be a perpetual fuelless reactor that will provide enough energy to power several cities and still be only the size of a modest house. expect to see one of these in full production by 2025, they're very close, few minor details to work out. Also Cold Fusion is also being looked into, but don't expect to see this before the turn of the century, the energy ratio of input/output leans heavily to the input side right now.

Maglev will be favored, not for the frictonless aspect, but because fo the costs in maintaining and lubing those wheels with Oil based products. remember, those trucks require a lot of lubercation to work, and that will cost too much when the price of oil get's to high. thus Railroads will opt for removing the trucks all together for a more clean system, and that is only maglev right now. there's other advantages to Maglev as well, no need to use sand (a cost cutter), more direct routes (they can go up to 10% grades without loss), they are quieter (means they can run in more places, like through residential areas and only sound like a whoosh and that's close by), and since they're elevated (usually) that means less impact on the enviroment and wildlife.

Like i said, it'll be a 2 stage process, first will be modifications of existing locomotives use maglev technology for propulsion and still retain the trucks for guidence, then they will slowly convert to full maglev operations over time. believe me, we will see a more green rail system as companies start feeling the pinch of the cost of oil.

PS. as interesting as this topic is, i am going out of towen on business for till thursday, so won't be able to see anything prgress till then. discuss amongst yourselves. See you thursday!

[Anonymous]

As I read this topic, I am thinking back to the stuff in the 1950's when they talked about "The things of tomorrow"....... items like houses that clean themselves and cars that fly.

In my opinion I believe in thirty or forty years things will appear similar with some improvements. Think back thirty or forty years. 1965 and 1975. How much has really changed since the SD45 series came out? Sure there are improvements here and there......AC traction, computer control, a variety of signaling and track improvements.......but essentially we are still running the same thing. Diesel Electric locomotives on track gauged 4' 8.5".

Progress is an evolution, it would take some serious world events to totally revamp the rail network. Sure oil is an concern, but once again lets go back to 1965 when gas was 25 cents a gallon. But in today’s dollars that would be somewhere 2.38 a gallon if you figure inflation. (Numbers maybe a little off because I do not have my CPI index sheet in front of me). Point being is oil is really no more expensive than forty years ago.....but I am not even going to speculate where oil will be in forty years, the market is just too volatile, but if there is a shift, rail technology will shift gradually.

[chad thomas]

We will NEVER see maglevs being used for freight railroading. Building and maintaining the infrastructure would be astronomical in cost. And for what. It takes soo much more energy to run them and that's what we are trying to save is energy. The most efficient form of land transportation is steel wheel on steel rail. And who says bearings of the future will need oil based lubercation (if any liquid lubercation)?

[eastside]

In a decade or so trains may be the relevant term only for collections of cars going long distances to a common location. By then the information revolution will have taken over and they'll be WI-FI capable, self-propelled, semi-autonomous vehicles able to switch, assemble or proceed to local spurs without human intervention. In other words, the railways will resemble automated conveyor belts. The WI-FI will enable all facets of cars condition to be monitored anywhere at an Internet terminal. Any railroad that doesn't head in this direction will be out of business.

[chad thomas]

QUOTE: Originally posted by eastside

In a decade or so trains may be the relevant term only for collections of cars going long distances to a common location. By then the information revolution will have taken over and they'll be WI-FI capable, self-propelled, semi-autonomous vehicles able to switch, assemble or proceed to local spurs without human intervention. In other words, the railways will resemble automated conveyor belts. The WI-FI will enable all facets of cars condition to be monitored anywhere at an Internet terminal. Any railroad that doesn't head in this direction will be out of business.

I think it will be far more than a decade, but you're right.

[Anonymous]

I can see coal being the primary fuel of the future. It will be either a liquified coal derived fuel utilized in diesel or some other distilate engine driving a generator (as is done now), or it could be a coal fired steam turbine used to regenerate a set of energy storage devices, much like the Green Goat of today. Using supercapacitors, it would be possible to engender enough energy storage within a nominal locomotive housing to facilitate enough time to allow the fire for the coal boiler to be refired when needed to recharge the supercapacitors. Thus you can have the same turn on/shut off capacity for the coal fired steam turbine as you do with the gas turbine of the Green Goat (albeit with a much longer time interval).

It's also possible by then that on board nuclear power may become acceptable, rendering hydrocarbon fuels obsolete.

I don't see catenary being strung over the nation's rail grid, as that is a huge capital undertaking.

[daveklepper]

If the price of oil for lubrication should become a problem, and I don't think it will, then other types of "frictionless" bearings will be used . Example: Ball or roller bearings where the balls or cylinders are made of Teflon. How do such bearings work? The Teflon wears very slowly but the wear product is itself a coating lubricant.

Right now Teflon is made using petroleum products but could be made from other sources, like most plastics.

That is only one possible technology. There are others. Possibly even the wheels won't be steel, although the rails certainly will be. Think about scaling up some of the plastics used in model railroads.

We might even see a captive two-rail electified automotic rapid transit line without third rail or trolley wire. Remember Edison's first backyard demonstration electric railroad was two rail, like a model train set.

[edblysard]

Dave and Steamerfan,
What lubrication?
If you mean the Timken 6 1/2" X 12" sealed axel bearings, they dont get lubed, ever.
Nor do the bolster plates, beyond the inital shot of grease when the car is first built.
Even the drawbar neck is no longer greased, it rides on a slippery plastic plate.

You use more grease on the trailer plate on a 18 wheeler than on a entire railcar.

Ed

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SteamerFan

In watching the price of oil over the last 30 years, it become evident that in 30-40 years it's price will become to much. that being said, railroads will be forced to look at alternatives that don't use oil based products. this means that lubercation wiould have to be at a minimal, and the only thing that could be cost effective and oil free (relatively) would be the Maglev system.

Thus in 30-40 years when oil prices are to high for railroads to handle, they will be forced to switch to a maglev system. there are 2 schools of this in thought now, the transistion trains, where two maglev rails are mounted along side the current rails on the ground and the train will be modified to use the system, but still use wheels. the final system is one where the entire train loses it's wheels and that is the one the governement is pushing for now.

maglev? no way...not in a wide scale use...it would be cheeper to just electrify the existing railroad inferstructor then to build a whole new one.... and both opptions are a major capital investment that the railroads just cant payfor by themselfs... now if you where to get funding from the fereral goverment... that might be a differnt issue... but dont hold your breath...im not...
csx engineer

[THayman]

I believe the scariest proposal so far is the idea of unmanned trains. Not only for those of us who long to be engineers, but I, as many, would far rather entrust my life to a man I don't know than a computer.

[siberianmo]

"Super Trains," by Joseph Vranich (1991) ISBN 0-312-06476-4 is a book published by St. martin's Press (NYC).

While one can only really guess what trains in the distant future will look like, the author really gets into what planners and policymakers should be looking at NOW regarding the future of railroading in the U.S.

Worth the read - even though it may be difficult to locate (check Barnes&Noble).

See ya![tup]

[adrianspeeder]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper
We might even see a captive two-rail electified automotic rapid transit line without third rail or trolley wire. Remember Edison's first backyard demonstration electric railroad was two rail, like a model train set.

I don't see how you could get around grounding issues when it rains.

Adrianspeeder

[chad thomas]

Perhaps there will be no trains in the future. As soon as someone invents a good teleporter the whole transportation thing will go out the window. Then all you will have is dispatchers programming coordinates.

"O.K. Charlie, Here comes that reactor you ordered. Clear the way."

[FThunder11]

Trains will be the same and Amtrak will be MUCH smoother run[2c]