QUOTE: Originally posted by robscaboose [?][?] What should one look for when purchasing a railroad pocket watch
Originally posted by robscaboose [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply tatans Member sinceMay 2004 4,115 posts Posted by tatans on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 4:10 PM As one would expect, there are plenty of Railway pocket watches out there, remember thousands were made for railway personnel, lots of old guys and estates are selling them,some at not too bad prices when you know how much these originally cost( a fortune) I picked up a Waltham RR pocket watch for $35.00, but this was a while back and it runs like a top, now to find a certified railway watch inspector to scratch his initials inside the back to O.K. the watch. they truly are a treasure. Reply Overmod Member sinceSeptember 2003 21,669 posts Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 6:35 PM robscaboose -- do you want the thing for a 'carry watch', or are you interested in it as an investment or hobby? There was a rather detailed thread on this on the forum a few months ago. Reply dehusman Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: Omaha, NE 10,621 posts Posted by dehusman on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 7:29 PM Many railroad watches carry the word "Railroad Approved" on the face. A railroad watch has to have all the numbers in Arabic numerals. Dave H. Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com Reply ben10ben Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Frankfort, Kentucky 1,758 posts Posted by ben10ben on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 7:46 PM Make sure you're really getting a railroad watch...not all sellers know what constitutes one, and some automatically assume that all old pocket watches are railroad watches. Generally, in order to be a railroad watch, a watch should be At least 17 jewels(at least as many as 21 in later years in some instances) Adjusted to at least 3 positions(stem up, face up, face down) and temperature(Elgin "Special Adjustment") A double roller escapment 16 or 18 size Open faced case Winding stem at the 12:00 position(Hunter movements in an open-faced case are acceptable as long as they are re-arranged with the second hand at 3:00) Open faced case A plain white(sometimes silver) dial with plain, bold arabic numerals Lever-setting Keep in mind that many railroads also added required an anti-magnetic balance and hairspring. If you're looking for one to carry, an Elgin B.W. Raymond is a good inexpensive choice(often less than $300 in good condition). Another good choice would be any watch with an Incabloc shock absorber, as it can save you costly repairs if the watch is dropped. Also, you're best buying one that comes already serviced. Buying a watch that hasn't been run in years and hasn't been serviced is asking for costly repairs down the road. The lubricants tend to attract dust, which form an abrasive paste in all the bearings. If the watch runs, this abrasive paste slowly but surely wears away the pivots, and they will most likely need replacement, which is not cheap. A proper cleaning and oiling runs $75-100, so, when buying one that hasn't been serviced recently, keep this cost in mind. Ben TCA 09-63474 Reply locomutt Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: Louisville,Ky. 5,077 posts Posted by locomutt on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 8:27 PM Don't know about "railroad watches" but have a "Hamilton" in my 'meager' collection. Was my Grandfathers,he lived by that one. It's in a display case now. Being Crazy,keeps you from going "INSANE" !! "The light at the end of the tunnel,has been turned off due to budget cuts" NOT AFRAID A Vet., and PROUD OF IT!! Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 10:40 PM ....And if one really wants an accurate watch...{even wrist-watch}, get one controlled from Colorado daily via radio....Accurate to a fraction of a second indefinitely...Mine doesn't even have a stem on it to set it..... Quentin Reply locomutt Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: Louisville,Ky. 5,077 posts Posted by locomutt on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 8:30 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar ....And if one really wants an accurate watch...{even wrist-watch}, get one controlled from Colorado daily via radio....Accurate to a fraction of a second indefinitely...Mine doesn't even have a stem on it to set it..... That might be extremely helpful,for "Spring Forward,and Fall Back" It sometimes gets rather 'hectic'setting watches & clocks. Being Crazy,keeps you from going "INSANE" !! "The light at the end of the tunnel,has been turned off due to budget cuts" NOT AFRAID A Vet., and PROUD OF IT!! Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 8:58 AM Yea, Locomutt....that feature allows the system to automatically set the watch forward or backwards which ever time of the season it is for the owner...and done correctly, in other words, the correct direction. But here in Indiana we of course don't change to DST and I didn't have that feature "turned off" so after it advanced one hour forward this past Sunday, I had to get out the directions to tell me how to get back to "Indiana" time. Turned out it wasn't very difficult. And one of the posters mentioned of having the correct time on his cell phone...all correct, as when we go back "home" to Pennsylvania and as soon as we cross the Ohio line the cell changes to EDT and then of course indicates the correct "local" time.....All this is just a bit advanced from the "Regulator" wall clock that is about 90 years old...and is hanging {and running}, in my home office here.....By the way, to keep this post at least a bit on target....I have a wall clock that was in the Ligonier, Pa. {Ligonier Valley Railroad}.....depot...for half of the last century...but have it stored...as I have 2 other regulators now on the walls and guess the 3rd one would be a bit much. But that railroad clock is important to me as I used to visit that depot as a child....The building still exists but the railroad has been gone for over 50 years..... Quentin Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 9:03 AM Great story. Gave me a good laugh! [:p][:o)][:o)] Originally posted by Modelcar [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply locomutt Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: Louisville,Ky. 5,077 posts Posted by locomutt on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 2:42 PM [#oops] Made a mistake. I have two railroad watches. One from my Dad, and one from my Grandad. One's a Hamilton, and the other has Illinois on it. Being Crazy,keeps you from going "INSANE" !! "The light at the end of the tunnel,has been turned off due to budget cuts" NOT AFRAID A Vet., and PROUD OF IT!! Reply Randy Stahl Member sinceJune 2004 From: roundhouse 2,747 posts Posted by Randy Stahl on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 3:20 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by locomutt [#oops] Made a mistake. I have two railroad watches. One from my Dad, and one from my Grandad. One's a Hamilton, and the other has Illinois on it. Nothing beats my 23j Bunn Special.....cept my Hamilton 992 998? Or maybe my Waltham riverside?....Hmmmm Hell...there all pretty !!!!! Randy Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 3:30 PM Everyone probably already knows this but: Classic RR watches originally had to be in an open faced, stem (pendant) wound, 16 sized case with lever set to prevent accidental time set. Faces had to be in bold arabic numerals. Hunter-type cases were technically not allowed. Accuracy was frequently checked. Most of the major mfrs. made rr aproved pocket watches such as: Howard, Waltham, Illinois, Rockford, Elgin, Hamilton and others. The Hamilton 992 series was and is particularly prized along with Waltham and Howard. You will also hear of the term Ball Standard. Excellent reference source is "Pocket Watch Collector's Guide" (also has wrist watches). Good genuine rr pocket watches in excellent running condition are not cheap even today. Cases were often nickel alloy for wear but coin silver sometimes seen. "Gold" rr watches were often not "solid" gold (i.e. 10k to sometimes 18k) but instead were "gold-filled" or rolled gold plate and were rated in years of wear: thus a 10 year wear rating had less gold than a 30 year rating. You may find some less expensive watches but generally can expect to pay at least $400 and UP for a decent example of a classic genuine rr watch. Please note: having a picture of a rr scene or engine on the watch face does NOT make the watch qualify as a rr approved watch. Ditto having a rr scene etched on the back. The watch action and case are the qualifiers. Finding someone GENUINELY qualified to work on these old art pieces is becoming increasingly difficult as are parts. Final note: beware of any watch described as being "overwound" or "needs a mainspring." All too often these descriptions are not accurate for too often the real problem is a broken balance staff. Also beware the "dunk it in an ultrasonic cleaner" boys who claim this properly cleans the watch. It takes more than that by a knowledgable craftsman. As with anything else: "Good work ain't cheap!" Reply Edit Overmod Member sinceSeptember 2003 21,669 posts Posted by Overmod on Thursday, April 7, 2005 8:10 AM locomutt, take off the backs of the watches and give us a report of the movement (watchworks) details. My guess is that the Hamilton will be a model 992B, and the Illinois a 21-jewel Bunn Special, but there might be all sorts of interesting possibilities... If you can scan pictures & post them, better still :-) BTW, ben10ben, the only 16s American-quality railroad watch I've seen that had Incabloc protection was the Ball watch with Swiss-movement (Record IIRC). This was notable to me as having the shock-protection springs not only on the balance, but on the escape and first wheels as well -- THAT is the kind of engineering attention I respect! Who else made a pocket watch in railroad grade with shock protection? Another BTW: robscaboose, if you're interested in the 'best' railroad pocket watches, never buy one that isn't visibly running (until you get familiar with them) and carefully look at the motion of the balance with the watch running. The rim of the balance wheel should run perfectly true, with no visible wobble at all. If not, the watch has been repaired at some point and the "position" accuracy (e.g. "adjusted to 5 positions") no longer means what it did -- if, indeed, anything. Having said that -- most of the watches that I've seen come on the market have had their balances repaired, sometimes more than once, and usually not with the greatest of 'loving care and attention'. Working railroaders didn't have time to find the best jewelers or repair people; I suspect the operating procedure was to slap a balance staff in there, true the wheel, and do the timing with the bow (and winding wheel) up, as that's the way the watch would be worn in a pocket most of the time. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, April 7, 2005 8:18 AM Mine CNW one is a Bradley![:D][:p][:)] Originally posted by sds19thma1 [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply ben10ben Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Frankfort, Kentucky 1,758 posts Posted by ben10ben on Friday, April 8, 2005 9:51 PM Overmod, Thanks for the information...I don't know enough about watches to know specifics. Although I do have an interest in them, about the only ones I can afford are inexpensive low-jeweled Elgins and dollar watches. An incabloc absorber on the first wheel almost sound like overkill(like putting jewels on the mainspring bearing), but I suppose that nothing really is overkill for a railroad enviroment. You do really have to respect a company that would go to that much effort. Another thing, too. As Overmod alluded to above, there's no such thing as a watch being "overwound". It's impossible to wind a watch too much unless you use a pair of pliers to do so, and even then the only result would be an inexpensive mainspring. A watch should wind and run for at least a few seconds with some prompting(shaking), along with the second hand moving. Even if the watch has a broken or damaged hairspring, it should still at least run for a second or two. If you can't get the watch to run for at least a few seconds, definitely pass, as you'll most likely be looking at at the very least a new balance staff. Very possibly, you could be looking at more serious repairs. One final thing. If you're buying a watch that supposed to be anti-magnetic, take a very careful look at the balance and hairspring. A blue hairspring indicates that the watch no longer has an anti-magnetic hairspring, while a silver hairspring indicates that the watch retains this feature. What I have been told is that the Elinvar(anti-magnetic) hairsprings were very fragile, and were often replaced with standard blue steel springs upon being broken. You probably won't notice the difference in normal use, although some may be bothered by this change. Ben TCA 09-63474 Reply Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Being Crazy,keeps you from going "INSANE" !! "The light at the end of the tunnel,has been turned off due to budget cuts" NOT AFRAID A Vet., and PROUD OF IT!!
Quentin
QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar ....And if one really wants an accurate watch...{even wrist-watch}, get one controlled from Colorado daily via radio....Accurate to a fraction of a second indefinitely...Mine doesn't even have a stem on it to set it.....
Originally posted by Modelcar [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply locomutt Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: Louisville,Ky. 5,077 posts Posted by locomutt on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 2:42 PM [#oops] Made a mistake. I have two railroad watches. One from my Dad, and one from my Grandad. One's a Hamilton, and the other has Illinois on it. Being Crazy,keeps you from going "INSANE" !! "The light at the end of the tunnel,has been turned off due to budget cuts" NOT AFRAID A Vet., and PROUD OF IT!! Reply Randy Stahl Member sinceJune 2004 From: roundhouse 2,747 posts Posted by Randy Stahl on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 3:20 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by locomutt [#oops] Made a mistake. I have two railroad watches. One from my Dad, and one from my Grandad. One's a Hamilton, and the other has Illinois on it. Nothing beats my 23j Bunn Special.....cept my Hamilton 992 998? Or maybe my Waltham riverside?....Hmmmm Hell...there all pretty !!!!! Randy Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 3:30 PM Everyone probably already knows this but: Classic RR watches originally had to be in an open faced, stem (pendant) wound, 16 sized case with lever set to prevent accidental time set. Faces had to be in bold arabic numerals. Hunter-type cases were technically not allowed. Accuracy was frequently checked. Most of the major mfrs. made rr aproved pocket watches such as: Howard, Waltham, Illinois, Rockford, Elgin, Hamilton and others. The Hamilton 992 series was and is particularly prized along with Waltham and Howard. You will also hear of the term Ball Standard. Excellent reference source is "Pocket Watch Collector's Guide" (also has wrist watches). Good genuine rr pocket watches in excellent running condition are not cheap even today. Cases were often nickel alloy for wear but coin silver sometimes seen. "Gold" rr watches were often not "solid" gold (i.e. 10k to sometimes 18k) but instead were "gold-filled" or rolled gold plate and were rated in years of wear: thus a 10 year wear rating had less gold than a 30 year rating. You may find some less expensive watches but generally can expect to pay at least $400 and UP for a decent example of a classic genuine rr watch. Please note: having a picture of a rr scene or engine on the watch face does NOT make the watch qualify as a rr approved watch. Ditto having a rr scene etched on the back. The watch action and case are the qualifiers. Finding someone GENUINELY qualified to work on these old art pieces is becoming increasingly difficult as are parts. Final note: beware of any watch described as being "overwound" or "needs a mainspring." All too often these descriptions are not accurate for too often the real problem is a broken balance staff. Also beware the "dunk it in an ultrasonic cleaner" boys who claim this properly cleans the watch. It takes more than that by a knowledgable craftsman. As with anything else: "Good work ain't cheap!" Reply Edit Overmod Member sinceSeptember 2003 21,669 posts Posted by Overmod on Thursday, April 7, 2005 8:10 AM locomutt, take off the backs of the watches and give us a report of the movement (watchworks) details. My guess is that the Hamilton will be a model 992B, and the Illinois a 21-jewel Bunn Special, but there might be all sorts of interesting possibilities... If you can scan pictures & post them, better still :-) BTW, ben10ben, the only 16s American-quality railroad watch I've seen that had Incabloc protection was the Ball watch with Swiss-movement (Record IIRC). This was notable to me as having the shock-protection springs not only on the balance, but on the escape and first wheels as well -- THAT is the kind of engineering attention I respect! Who else made a pocket watch in railroad grade with shock protection? Another BTW: robscaboose, if you're interested in the 'best' railroad pocket watches, never buy one that isn't visibly running (until you get familiar with them) and carefully look at the motion of the balance with the watch running. The rim of the balance wheel should run perfectly true, with no visible wobble at all. If not, the watch has been repaired at some point and the "position" accuracy (e.g. "adjusted to 5 positions") no longer means what it did -- if, indeed, anything. Having said that -- most of the watches that I've seen come on the market have had their balances repaired, sometimes more than once, and usually not with the greatest of 'loving care and attention'. Working railroaders didn't have time to find the best jewelers or repair people; I suspect the operating procedure was to slap a balance staff in there, true the wheel, and do the timing with the bow (and winding wheel) up, as that's the way the watch would be worn in a pocket most of the time. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, April 7, 2005 8:18 AM Mine CNW one is a Bradley![:D][:p][:)] Originally posted by sds19thma1 [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply ben10ben Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Frankfort, Kentucky 1,758 posts Posted by ben10ben on Friday, April 8, 2005 9:51 PM Overmod, Thanks for the information...I don't know enough about watches to know specifics. Although I do have an interest in them, about the only ones I can afford are inexpensive low-jeweled Elgins and dollar watches. An incabloc absorber on the first wheel almost sound like overkill(like putting jewels on the mainspring bearing), but I suppose that nothing really is overkill for a railroad enviroment. You do really have to respect a company that would go to that much effort. Another thing, too. As Overmod alluded to above, there's no such thing as a watch being "overwound". It's impossible to wind a watch too much unless you use a pair of pliers to do so, and even then the only result would be an inexpensive mainspring. A watch should wind and run for at least a few seconds with some prompting(shaking), along with the second hand moving. Even if the watch has a broken or damaged hairspring, it should still at least run for a second or two. If you can't get the watch to run for at least a few seconds, definitely pass, as you'll most likely be looking at at the very least a new balance staff. Very possibly, you could be looking at more serious repairs. One final thing. If you're buying a watch that supposed to be anti-magnetic, take a very careful look at the balance and hairspring. A blue hairspring indicates that the watch no longer has an anti-magnetic hairspring, while a silver hairspring indicates that the watch retains this feature. What I have been told is that the Elinvar(anti-magnetic) hairsprings were very fragile, and were often replaced with standard blue steel springs upon being broken. You probably won't notice the difference in normal use, although some may be bothered by this change. Ben TCA 09-63474 Reply Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
QUOTE: Originally posted by locomutt [#oops] Made a mistake. I have two railroad watches. One from my Dad, and one from my Grandad. One's a Hamilton, and the other has Illinois on it.
Originally posted by sds19thma1 [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply ben10ben Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Frankfort, Kentucky 1,758 posts Posted by ben10ben on Friday, April 8, 2005 9:51 PM Overmod, Thanks for the information...I don't know enough about watches to know specifics. Although I do have an interest in them, about the only ones I can afford are inexpensive low-jeweled Elgins and dollar watches. An incabloc absorber on the first wheel almost sound like overkill(like putting jewels on the mainspring bearing), but I suppose that nothing really is overkill for a railroad enviroment. You do really have to respect a company that would go to that much effort. Another thing, too. As Overmod alluded to above, there's no such thing as a watch being "overwound". It's impossible to wind a watch too much unless you use a pair of pliers to do so, and even then the only result would be an inexpensive mainspring. A watch should wind and run for at least a few seconds with some prompting(shaking), along with the second hand moving. Even if the watch has a broken or damaged hairspring, it should still at least run for a second or two. If you can't get the watch to run for at least a few seconds, definitely pass, as you'll most likely be looking at at the very least a new balance staff. Very possibly, you could be looking at more serious repairs. One final thing. If you're buying a watch that supposed to be anti-magnetic, take a very careful look at the balance and hairspring. A blue hairspring indicates that the watch no longer has an anti-magnetic hairspring, while a silver hairspring indicates that the watch retains this feature. What I have been told is that the Elinvar(anti-magnetic) hairsprings were very fragile, and were often replaced with standard blue steel springs upon being broken. You probably won't notice the difference in normal use, although some may be bothered by this change. Ben TCA 09-63474 Reply Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.