Saluda...Is it still in embargo status...

[Modelcar]

Famous NS Saluda, NC grade route was entered into embargo status almost a year ago...Wondering if that is still the case and perhaps no more traffic will travel the "hill"...

QM

[Modelcar]

...Do we have anyone there in the North Carolina area who can update us on this route status...Will tracks be left in place for now, if it still is not being used..?

QM

[Anonymous]

If Saluda is out of service,then what is the steepest grade on a class 1 railroad still in daily use?

[Modelcar]

Good question...There used to be a very steep grade...[What, around 5 + % maybe...], near Madison, In. but I don't remember if it was or if it's still there and qualified to be a class 1...

I can say from experience standing at the edge of the little town of Saluda, N C and looking down the grade it was hard for me to comprehend I was looking down a railroad grade. Several years I tried to catch traffic there on our way back from Florida with no success. Just can't imagine how diesel electric engines bring massive weight up that much grade. Of course I know they did.

QM

[edbenton]

last I heard it still was and the crrent king is raton pass on the BNSF

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the information about Raton Pass.I saw the Madison Hill once back when Penn Central owned it.They used a pair of SD-7's on the 4.9% grade.It looked like PC only used the hill once or twice a week.

[Modelcar]

If we are refering to the subject of steep grades....give us a little more info on the Raton Pass site....I'm not aware of an exceptionally steep site here...How steep is it..? Always like to hear of such sites.

QM

[Anonymous]

Yes, the rails are still in place on Saluda grade, but they are now covered in rust. Also small weeds are beginning to show. Funny thing though, the signals along the line are still lit like they are expecting a train to come at any moment. NS plans to leave the rails in place for the forseeable future. Once before they embargoed the route from Spartanburg to Asheville via Saluda but then reopened it about a year later due to traffic. The hope is not as bright now due to shifting traffic patterns.

[Modelcar]

Thanks for the update...I have the same feeling of the possibility of it reopening...I had read the coal traffic was shifted to another route because it was originating from somewhat different locations...

As I have stood and peered down the "grade" I have noticed the string of "night light" type of lights on poles down along the grade from the summut there at Saluda...Would you have any idea what purpose they served down along there...Possibly for brakeman and other action necessary for safety on the "hill"...?

One other thing...The closing of that route surely will effect fan traffic into that little town eventually. There are several restaruants right along that short main street that perhaps depend somewhat on the traveling and fan folks.

If I would have only known at my last visit there...Mar. 2001, I would have waited longer to see a train movement as it probably was my last chance. I did wait several hrs. but to no avail.

QM

[mudchicken]

Raton Pass maxes-out at 4.03% for all of 125 feet on the east (geographic north) side at Morley in Colorado. You only have 11 miles of anything over 3.0% (mostly in the low 3's), the crest of the hill is in the tunnel on top of the hill in the middle of those 11 miles. The operating types in Schaumberg and now Ft. Worth are unjustifiably terrified of the hill. Too bad they never come out in the field and get their boots dirty!

Still the fastest way, Chicago to L.A.

[Modelcar]

....I'm surprised there was that much milage over 3% on main line trackage in the modern age...I of course knew about Saluda and surely understood that as an exception...I just wonder why they didn't take a more circular route when that ROW was surveyed to lessen the overall grade....Of course that adds milage but surely that would have caused less problems...

QM

QM

[Soo2610]

Doesn't bother anyone in Schaumburg anymore. They are ancient history and long gone. Dispatching is all out of Fort Worth now. Schaumburg was impressive to see when it was there.

[mudchicken]

(1) 3% grade isn't that big a problem, the surveyors (Kingman, Robinson & the other big 4 of 6) did a remarkable job given the terrain constraints. Managing a problem by virtualy ignoring it (Raton/Glorieta)just means somebody can't see an advantage (speed, less congestion) and figure a way to capitalize on it...
(2) on Raton Pass there isn't any room to spread it out...All you would do would be incur additional expenses on rail and track maintenance. Further south they tied to remove loops at Ribera and found out that loops vs. slightly higher grade shortcuts are a wash costwise. Can't gain much advantage at Cajon either, you just deal with it and keep moving.
(3) The Belen cut-off is the low grade, longer distance solution to the problem. The Colmor-Boise City Cutoff never was completed and still would have had eastbounders looking at 3% and under from Apache Canyon to Glorieta (5 miles)....
(4) They still waste an incredible amount of fuel with engines just sitting around (Better than it was, but...) The economic and HP/ton models are so badly skewed to engine performance vs. the overall picture that the Ft. Worth/ ex-Schaumberg folks will continue in lock-step to put all their eggs in one basket until it breaks east of Belen.

[Modelcar]

That's an interesting report on mountain trackage. Somehow I was under the impression the severe gradients were eliminated after the first build over most of the western passes. And I'm sure some of them were lowered in rebuilds.

3% is a heavy grade...for a heavy train. In coal country, in Pennsylvania many years ago multiple steam engines would bring coal up the Somerset and Cambria branch of the B&O every day and it would work them hard to do so...There was a section of 3% and some sharp radius curves with it.

The Pennsylvania Turnpike follows roughly the ROW of the proposed [and partly built], South Penn RR of 1885. That crossed the Allegheney Mtns. perpendicularly and used tunnels. The route was modified to 3% max for the Turnpike but the South Penn was held to Max 2%...I comment only to show the railroad builders went to more extremes to keep the grade low to get their routing over the mountains.

The Pennsylvania Railroad's route [east-west], up and around Horseshoe Curve is held to a max of about 1.8% grade...Of course the route now is in the hands of N S. The builders of that system went to extremes to keep their crossing of the Allegheney's at a moderate rate of grade...and they still had run a ways...I make these comments just showing the range of some of the easten mountain crossings.

QM

[mudchicken]

The only way most of the western railroads lowered grades was to tunnel through them...

Raton(ATSF),Hagerman/Busk Ivanhoe(CM),Rollins Pass/Moffat (DSL/DRGW), Rogers Pass(CP) as examples....

Before the advent of the bulldozer and subsequent heavy equipment, you were pretty much out of luck....

[Modelcar]

I know I'm off subject a bit here but we're still discussing heavy R R Grades..so, guess that's not too bad. I understand not having heavy equipment way back when...I believe some of the original western crossings may even used switchbacks at some locations on the original survey. And that is another feat I have difficulty understanding...How the Surveyors made their way through the rough territory to find the best passage.

Our own crossing of the Allegheny's in the east by the Pennsylvania that was held to the 1.8% I mentioned was done almost 150 years ago. Not too much heavy equipment avail then either. That route was opened in 1854.

QM

[Modelcar]

I know I'm off subject a bit here but we're still discussing heavy R R Grades..so, guess that's not too bad. I understand not having heavy equipment way back when...I believe some of the original western crossings may even used switchbacks at some locations on the original survey. And that is another feat I have difficulty understanding...How the Surveyors made their way through the rough territory to find the best passage.

Our own crossing of the Allegheny's in the east by the Pennsylvania that was held to the 1.8% I mentioned was done almost 150 years ago. Not too much heavy equipment avail then either. That route was opened in 1854.

QM

[Modelcar]

I know I'm off subject a bit here but we're still discussing heavy R R Grades..so, guess that's not too bad. I understand not having heavy equipment way back when...I believe some of the original western crossings may even used switchbacks at some locations on the original survey. And that is another feat I have difficulty understanding...How the Surveyors made their way through the rough territory to find the best passage.

Our own crossing of the Allegheny's in the east by the Pennsylvania that was held to the 1.8% I mentioned was done almost 150 years ago. Not too much heavy equipment avail then either. That route was opened in 1854.

QM

[Modelcar]

...Oops...I have hit the mouse send once or so too often in above notes.

QM

[Anonymous]

Does anyone know what the last train was to go up the grade before they closed it last year? Most likely a coal train or the woodchip train I think they call 62E or 63E or something like that.

[Modelcar]

I can't tell you what train it was to be the last to do the "hill" but somewhere I come upon the info [maybe it was from the TRAINS editor], that the date was Dec. 9th 2000.

QM