Natural Tunnel, Va.

[MP173]

Will be in the vicinity of Natural Tunnel in Virginia.

Is it worth a stop?  What is train frequency?  Would guess this is primarily a coal line.  Is it an NS or CSX line, or both?

Recall years ago there was some sort of agreement between NS and CSX about trackage rights in that area (Frisco, Va perhaps?).

Will be on a trip with my wife, so this isnt a full fledged rail outing, but she does tolerate some rail exploring, particularly if the scenery is nice.

Thanks for suggestions.

 

Ed

[timz]

This info from 1987 --

It's a Southern Ry line, and you're right, CSX trains run over it to Frisco. (Maybe that was an exchange, since NS trains also ran over Clinchfield nearby?)

How much of a detour is it worth? Some. There's a public overlook of the south portal where you look about vertically down on the track just south of the portal. (Incidentally, the tunnel is a natural tunnel, but they did have to enlarge the inside a bit.) Anyway, there's other stuff to see in the area.

Continuing south from the tunnel, coal trains have a climb of maybe 1.5%, so in 1987 CSX trains had manned pushers and NS trains had entrained helpers with SOUTHERN radio-control cars, and maybe a manned helper on the rear to boot. I figure if your trains need two helpers, you qualify as big-time railroading.

Approaching Speers Ferry SR is running alongside the Clinchfield's Copper Creek bridge 100+ feet above, which is a worthwhile picture.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZWHKyVNqDyXpWbRt7

Then 1.4 miles south of there SR crosses beneath CRR, having gained maybe 80 feet of altitude, compared to Clinchfield's 0.3% climb.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/uR87HbaN8n646bpj7

https://maps.app.goo.gl/v3VPSxJMSSow5WoD6

No idea how often a coal train shows up nowadays, on either line.

[MP173]

Thanks timz.

Looks like an interesting area, but difficult to navigate (for this flatlander).

I seriously doubt if a train will be available, but one never knows.

edit:  Looking back at old Official Guide, looks like old Southern and L&N lines in the area along with Clinchfield.  Not much detail on the OG maps.  

Ed

[timz]

You've heard of Norton, Virginia, where L&N met N&W?

The L&N line to Norton ran south to north thru here

https://mapper.acme.com/?ll=36.87637,-82.77833&z=17&t=S

Then in the 1980s they built the curving connection you see across the river, so coal trains could come east off L&N to go south on SR thru Natural Tunnel to Frisco to get on Clinchfield. As you can see, the L&N line east/north from the new connection has now been abandoned.

Some? Most? of that L&N coal came out of this tunnel mouth

https://mapper.acme.com/?ll=36.70483,-83.28938&z=17&t=S&marker0=36.70646%2C-83.28855%2C39.7%20km%20ExNE%20of%20Middlesboro%20KY

and pulled south enough to be able to back northward, then westward, up the connection to the east-west L&N line on top of the tunnel mouth. Which goes east to the above-mentioned connection to SR to go to Frisco. I guess they still do that, once in a while anyway.

The current CSX map helps

https://www.csx.com/index.cfm/customers/maps/csx-system-map/

The L&N tunnel north of the Hagan switchback connection crosses from Kentucky into Virginia 23 miles ENE of the west end of Virginia. Then you can see the L&N line east from there to the connection to SR at Big Stone Gap, and the dotted line showing trackage rights on SR to Frisco.

That switchback connection was built around 1930 -- L&N intended to build southward from the tunnel and positioned the tunnel for that purpose. As long as they were there they added the awkward connection to the east-west line; as it turned out, the extension southward never happened.

[ns145]

If you have access to the TRAINS magazine archive, check out the January 1991 issue.  Ron Flanary wrote a very nice article on the NS and CSX operations in the area and how the swapped trackage rights arrangement came into being. 

There is also a very nice map of the former L&N, SOU, CRR, N&W, and Interstate RR trackage in the area.

[ns145]

Here is a flickr-based railfan photo site map of the area: https://railfanatlas.com/?x=-82.7458153&y=36.6850925&z=13

Click on the grid-in-circle icon on the upper right corner of the app to see all of the photos located within the map window.

[MP173]

Thanks for the replies.

I knew there was a Trains article featuring Frisco...but had no idea of when.  I pulled my Jan '91 issue and will read it over the weekend.  Looks like quite the guide to the region.

The "24 Hours at Frisco" table indicated on that date there were 35 trains (all coal) moving thru the area.  I am sure the train count is down considerably.  Any idea of train count in 2023 in that region?

The rail lines and geography appear intimidating to this Midwesterner which features tangent track and very little elevation.  Will need some time to attempt to figure this out.

Does the old Clinchfield line see much traffic these days?

With the references provided,plus my Official Guides and the openrailwaymap I might be able to figure this out.  My main goal would be a train thru Natural Tunnel...my wife would probably accept that.  Would be a decent trade off if there are local wineries in the region!

Thanks for help and keep it coming.

Ed

[BaltACD]

MP173

Thanks for the replies.

I knew there was a Trains article featuring Frisco...but had no idea of when.  I pulled my Jan '91 issue and will read it over the weekend.  Looks like quite the guide to the region.

The "24 Hours at Frisco" table indicated on that date there were 35 trains (all coal) moving thru the area.  I am sure the train count is down considerably.  Any idea of train count in 2023 in that region?

The rail lines and geography appear intimidating to this Midwesterner which features tangent track and very little elevation.  Will need some time to attempt to figure this out.

Does the old Clinchfield line see much traffic these days?

With the references provided,plus my Official Guides and the openrailwaymap I might be able to figure this out.  My main goal would be a train thru Natural Tunnel...my wife would probably accept that.  Would be a decent trade off if there are local wineries in the region!

Thanks for help and keep it coming.

Ed

Several years ago CSX was making an effort to downgrade the amount of traffic that was being routed over the former Clinchfield.  If have no idea what traffic still exists.

[ns145]

The latest CSX train symbol list shows two manifest trains running via the Clinchfield:  M692 and M693.  I didn't bother to check thru all of the coal train symbols.  Bulk trains are always catch as catch can.

The most recent traffic density data that I have access to shows the CSX line between 5 to 10 MGT and the NS line at less than 5 MGT.  Coal traffic coming off the former L&N at Big Stone Gap, VA is almost non-existent.  Getting a train going thru Natural Tunnel might prove to be a challenge. You might have to go up to the yard in Andover/Appalachia and wait for an NS train to head south towards Frisco.  Some originate at Andover and others on the former N&W north/east of Norton.

[timz]

NS coal doesn't come down Clinchfield from St Paul to Frisco any more?

[MP173]

Thanks for updates on the traffic density.  Figured it was way down as coal becomes less of an econcomic driver.  

Plans are (tentatively) to stay at Big Stone Gap for the night and then explore the park the next morning before heading south towards Asheville (perhaps Saluda) and then to Charlotte to visit friends.  

Big changes noted not only in the number of coal trains but also in the size of TRAINS magazine.  The January, 1991 issue topped out at 108 pages.  Current issue of TRAINS is 59 pages and Classic Trains is 74 pages.  The advertising is greatly reduced....obviously.  Tip of the hat to Kalmbach for continuing on.

At some point I will probably make the leap to the digital platform...not yet as I do enjoy printed word, either book or magazine.

Ed

[csxns]

BaltACD

Clinchfield.  If have no idea what traffic still exists.

Check out Southern Railfan the traffic does not look so bad.

[MP173]

I have studied the Ron Flannery article referenced above about Frisco (and surrounding region).  quite detailed explanation of the region's coal movements.  

We will be in Big Stone Gap overnight and will do a little exploring, then hit Natural Tunnel park and possibly Frisco area before heading on.  Should be able to squeeze that into the trip.

Ed

[MP173]

We arrived in Big Stone Gap yesterday (10/20) 5pm.  Rainy day.  We drove up to Appalachia for an excellent dinner at Black Bear BBQ.  After dinner it was nearly dark, but we did explore just a bit.  No activity evident.

Very interesting area.  Not only rail related but also great scenery with mountains and turning leaves.  I really appreciate the maps and other info.  Will do a little exploring around Big Stone Gap then to Natural Tunnel.  We are meeting friends tonight in Charlotte, so not much time to explore.

Fascinating article by Ron Flannery and David Devault (Trains, Jan. 1991) which gives a great overview of the operations back during "Big Coal" days.  Not so much now.  As a local man said last night that coal is nearly gone (and good paying jobs).  Still, the tracks remain with a few trains (so I am told!).

 

Ed

[MP173]

Field report 10/21:

Lots of infrastructure, no trains.

Went to Natural Tunnel State Park first.  Just an amazing park...with a railroad running thru it.  This is definately one of the great railfanning sites to visit.  Unfortunately no trains.  Didnt expect any.  The engineering and surveying to lay these tracks is pretty amazing.

Next stop - Copper Creek Viaduct.  At this point the Copper Creek joins the Clinch River with CSX - ex Clinchfield on a 183 ft viaduct over the creek and the NS line about 30 ft above the creek.  This was very impressive site.  Again, no trains.

Drove to Saluda, NC.  The town had a festival of some sort with hundreds of cyclists.  Carefully left town in search of the grade down Pearson Falls Road, a one lane gravel road.  Quite scenic, no sight of the grade.  Somehow we bypassed Melrose and ended up in Tryon, NC.  Needed to get to the Charlotte area for a dinner with friends.  

Again, no trains in Saluda, but then again, no trains have passed thru the grade in over 20 years.  Nice town.  Would return again, as we would to Big Stone Gap area.

Ed

[timz]

Looking at the NS tonnage map for 1996: 23.5 million gross tons thru Natural Tunnel (not including CSX I assume) and 29 million on the Clinchfield north of Frisco.

Also, 7.9 million thru Saluda.