Finland and Estonia planning a 15 billion dollar tunnel under the Gulf of Finland, between Helsinki and Tallinn, frming a twin city metropolitan area and improving connectivity between Finland and the rest of Europe. The government controlled FinEst Initiative and FinEst Bay Area Development, a private company led by Finnish entrepreneur Peter Vesterbacka, are the planners.
This is disrilled and rewritten from U=Tube. More information, posted by others, is welcome.
My comment: Finland's rail connection with the rest of Europe is only via Russia.
87 Km. or about 55 miles of tunnel less any causeway. The CHUNNEL is 31.5 miles. My thinking is that the amount of traffic needed to justify it doesn't exist.
Well, the Finns and Estonians see to think it's worthwhile, if not for commerce, then for mutual defense purposes?
No doubt the Baltic states look over their shoulders once in a while to make sure the Russians aren't getting ready to try anything, remember Stalin siezed the Baltic states (Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania) in 1939, and the Finns tangled with the Russians as well around the same time.
How long does it take to cross by ferry?
In case you are wondering about the benefits of Estonia, here (in the spirit of hotforwords) is your first language lesson:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcTkB-bqRFM
Oh, bay-bee!
Speaking of the Baltic states, military history buffs out there may find this interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM0mHnEzOG4
Flintlock76Oh, bay-bee! Speaking of the Baltic states, military history buffs out there may find this interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM0mHnEzOG4
As a American - it is amazing just how little knowledge we are taught about the real history of things that happen outside the borders of the USA. We get taught the 'big' things - but the undercurrent of continuing conflicts for territorial or ethnic dominance rarely rise to the level of attention that those in the USA are made aware of.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Flintlock76Oh, bay-bee!
BaltACD Flintlock76 Oh, bay-bee! Speaking of the Baltic states, military history buffs out there may find this interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM0mHnEzOG4 As a American - it is amazing just how little knowledge we are taught about the real history of things that happen outside the borders of the USA. We get taught the 'big' things - but the undercurrent of continuing conflicts for territorial or ethnic dominance rarely rise to the level of attention that those in the USA are made aware of.
Flintlock76 Oh, bay-bee! Speaking of the Baltic states, military history buffs out there may find this interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM0mHnEzOG4
No real surprise Balt. In all fairness the schools can't teach everything, there just aren't enough hours in the day or days in the year.
What they should do is spark the curiosity so that youngsters are motivated to keep learning.
It should also come as no suprise how little those in other countries know about us.
Gramp How long does it take to cross by ferry?
I can't give a definitive answer, WAG would be 2 hours. On the other hand, ice is a very significant issue, with the Finn's being very experienced in building ships that can handle ice. Suspect the main attraction of the tunnel is being able to operate when the Baltic sea is iced over. The Baltic is significantly less salty than the oceans so will freeze at a higher temperature.
Flintlock76 BaltACD Flintlock76 Oh, bay-bee! Speaking of the Baltic states, military history buffs out there may find this interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM0mHnEzOG4 As a American - it is amazing just how little knowledge we are taught about the real history of things that happen outside the borders of the USA. We get taught the 'big' things - but the undercurrent of continuing conflicts for territorial or ethnic dominance rarely rise to the level of attention that those in the USA are made aware of. No real surprise Balt. In all fairness the schools can't teach everything, there just aren't enough hours in the day or days in the year. What they should do is spark the curiosity so that youngsters are motivated to keep learning.
It is not just the schools - the media are nation centric and rarely report the 'low level' conflicts that are happening around the world. In the USA we have next to no knowledge of the internal inssues that are facing either Canada or Mexico. Of course, with all the issues that currently exist within the US I doubt there are enough hours in the day to present internal issues of other countrie.
Remember, when most of us were in school the USSR was a monolithic enemy without 'known' weakness. Once the world situation progressed to fall of the Berlin Wall and the demise of East Germany and the dissoultion of the USSR into all the various republics that made it the Union of socialist republics and all their bitter conflicts between each other - then one saw the USSR as a governmental 'Whack-a-mole' in trying to keep all the constituant republics under 'control'; let alone the Moscow leaning countries.
BaltACDIt is not just the schools - the media are nation centric and rarely report the 'low level' conflicts that are happening around the world.
Quite true as well.
When I was in the gun business I met quite a few firearms enthusiasts from around the world, but mostly from Europe.
Know what I learned from them? If we rely on the American press to keep us informed about what's happening around the world, we don't know what's really happening around the world. By the same token, our foreign visitors learned the same thing, if they relied on their own press to keep them informed about what was happening in America they didn't know what was really happening in America.
And so it gets back to the Finland-Estonia proposed tunnel. It may not make sense to us, but it must sure as hell make sense to them.
Flintlock76If we rely on the American press to keep us informed about what's happening around the world, we don't know what's really happening around the world. By the same token, our foreign visitors learned the same thing, if they relied on their own press to keep them informed about what was happening in America they didn't know what was really happening in America.
The News isn't the news anymore. It really is "drive by" sensationalism with bias.
GrampThe News isn't the news anymore. It really is "drive by" sensationalism with bias.
The 'News' department has to answer to the 'Entertainment' division about ratings.
BaltACD Gramp The News isn't the news anymore. It really is "drive by" sensationalism with bias. The 'News' department has to answer to the 'Entertainment' division about ratings.
Gramp The News isn't the news anymore. It really is "drive by" sensationalism with bias.
Those two departments were combined years ago
Whenever I see CBS News anchor Nora O'Donnell "reporting", I'm reminded of the Steely Dan song, "Pixeleen". "My three-times perfect ultrateen".
I d on't see how enough traffic would use the service to ever recover the initial cost. As I understand it, the "chunnel" is a
marginally economical undertaking. Seems like something along the lines of "Sea train" from 60 years ago would be far more cost effective and less subject to tampering by the neighbor to the east' Perhaps cargo s
egregation into high value/low value and time seneitive/time flexible could be used to determine routing either over the ferry short-cut or the land-based current route.
I've been to both countries and there are numerous ferries between Helsinki and Tallinn. I think that rail ferries should be able to handle any of the traffic.
A very important thing to remember when comparing it to the Chunnel is the relative size of the countries. The UK and France have a combined population of about 133 milliond people while Finland and Estonia have less than 7 million. The combined GDP of the UK and France is 5.45 trillion dollars while Finland and Estonia is only 267 billion, the vast majority is Finland's (248B). I don't see how it's economically viable.
Last year the GDP for Finland was $269 Billion. I think Finland is really looking at linking itself to all of Europe, and not just Estonia.
This is not about local traffic between Finland and Estonia. This link is part of a critical EU corridor:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-European_Transport_Network
and in my opinion the Vesterbacka proposal is being tacitly if not more obviously underwritten as a Belt and Road initiative -- the Chinese ability to arrange for 15 billion euros into a capital project like this, and providing 'sweetheart' engineering without a bunch of fancy consultants, being fairly realizable.
I believe the studies so far are predicated on a half-hour transit time, which means an average speed in the bore of over 100mph. That is the calculated 'break-even with ferry alternative' in the original studies circa 2015...
Please remember the history of both countries, which fuels Finland's desire for a rail connection to Western Europe that avoids Russia, and the Estonians' desire to help.
A friend and teacher of mine in the USA army 1954-1956 was a Major Keravori, who had faught for Finlad on the German side against Rusia, our Allie in WWII against Germany.
daveklepperPlease remember the history of both countries, which fuels Finland's desire for a rail connection to Western Europe that avoids Russia, and the Estonians' desire to help.
After the fall of the USSR, I knew a missionary who worked in Latvia and Estonia. He had stories of the nightmare occupation that lasted until the late 1980s.
York1 John
Well I'm sure glad "Magic Mike" still cares enough to look through the keyhole and observe what's going on in here.
Here's some things he's found concerning the aforementioned proposed tunnel.
This is about the guy pushing the project.
https://www.politico.eu/list/politico-28-class-of-2019-the-ranking/peter-vesterbacka/
And a talk he gave in 2019.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nejW1g40pbg
And this "Whys and Wherefores" video from 2020.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvpNG1FBXss
York1After the fall of the USSR, I knew a missionary who worked in Latvia and Estonia. He had stories of the nightmare occupation that lasted until the late 1980s.
And that being the case, I'm sure everyone will find this fascinating.
Never mind the shocker of a title, wait for it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qcEFnGeZ6A
Eastern Europe is another interest of mine; besides trains and the church of course I confess to being sceptical about the tunnel. If Finland wants to reach Europe bypassing Russia, it would make far more sense to run rail traffic through friendly Sweden. I know that Finland and Estonia share the same five foot gauge with Russia as a consequence of having been in the Russian Empire. There may be a problem with standard gauge in Sweden, but sooner or later, they would come accross the same problem, if they ran traffic south through Estonia-Latvia-Lithuania into the European heartland. I am sure traffic could be transported by water from Sweden to Denmark. Once in Denmark, already the European mainland.
When I was still living in Michigan, some years back, I studied the Finnish language with a Mr. Lehikoinen. He was a Michigan Finn who went back to the old country with his parents and they were trapped there by WWII. He was too young to fight during the Winter War, when the Soviets invaded. However, he was able to fight in the Continuation War, when Finland joined Nazi Germany to fight the Soviets. Mr, Lehikoinen told us that he would interogate Soviet POW's in Russian, before they were shipped inwards to camps. I'm sorry I didn't get to know him better and record some of his experiences since he's long since departed from this world. He did say that anyone who glorifies war hasn't had to live through it's horrors.
Spent 8 years working with an Estonian immigrant that managed to survive WW2. He was our B&B General Supervisor and an incredibly talented , interesting man. The stories he could tell(served in the Estonian, Russian and German armies at various stages). Enjoyed being around him immensely....The stories of the Finns and the Estonians is truly another side to the conflict.
Fairly easy to see why they want no part of Russia or to be dependant on it.
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