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Up to 18 inches of rain forecast for Houston

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Tuesday, August 29, 2017 5:39 PM

Title needs changing.  18 "  how Houston wishes it true.

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, August 29, 2017 6:14 PM

51.88 reported by NBC!

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by ruderunner on Tuesday, August 29, 2017 6:28 PM

BaltACD

51.88 reported by NBC!

 

 

The Nothing But Clinton channel?

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, had to beat TRRB to it.

 

Another Fourm I'm on posted traffic camera pics dated Friday at noon and Sunday morning and wow!  The water in spots must be 30' deep!

 

How many carloads of mud are going to get shipped out?

Modeling the Cleveland and Pittsburgh during the PennCentral era starting on the Cleveland lakefront and ending in Mingo junction

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Posted by moelarrycurly4 on Wednesday, August 30, 2017 7:19 PM

Where I grew up in Pearland they received 57 inches of rain through out the event. 

Our house flooded in 1979 during Claudette. Durling Alicia we did not flood but had a lot of water in the yard, the winds blew most of the water away from the house. 

The house flooded about a foot in the early 90's  and about 4 ft in Alison ,but I had already moved to Kentucky. My parents sold and moved here in 2003, they got tired of flooding. 

I feel for everyone there I have been there and done that. 

One time in college we went to a mexican rest down the Gulf freeway from UH , while we were there it cam 7 inches of rain at UH and we could not get back. 

 

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Thursday, August 31, 2017 4:43 PM

K. P. Harrier

blue streak 1 (8-28):

 
blue streak 1

Will the UP bridge over the Brazos survive the flood this time ?

 
I was thinking the same thing as you, blue streak 1, and was wondering about the Sunset Route’s recently revamped Brazos River Bridge.  For those that think this forum or even this thread should be renamed “9-1-1” and that should guide the discussions, somehow I don’t think those at Kalmback would concur with them …
 
While Houston is under water, the High Desert of Southern California is dry and hot, at 110 decrees.  What a contrast is in this great nation!
 Take care,
K.P.
 

 
When UP rebuilds its bridges they do it right.  Here is the Brazos river bridge.
 
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Posted by rdamon on Thursday, August 31, 2017 4:57 PM

You can really see the debris up against the bridge at 2:50

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Posted by rdamon on Friday, September 1, 2017 12:14 PM
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Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, September 1, 2017 1:30 PM

There are unconfirmed reports that some floating top tanks have collasped tops downward due to so much rain on top.  Since water is heavier than most petroleum products can imagine a tank not full would be prone to collaspe under too much water weight ?  Any confirmation one way or the other ? 

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Friday, September 1, 2017 3:59 PM

blue streak 1

There are unconfirmed reports that some floating top tanks have collasped tops downward due to so much rain on top.  Since water is heavier than most petroleum products can imagine a tank not full would be prone to collaspe under too much water weight ?  Any confirmation one way or the other ? 

 

I'm not sure I understand what a floating top tank is. Wouldn't any tank made to store petroleum have some pitch to the top in order to drain water?

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, September 1, 2017 4:05 PM

Murphy Siding
I'm not sure I understand what a floating top tank is.

In this kind of tank the roof structures swims on top of the stored liquid. so the roof structure has no free span but is supported over the entire area.
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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, September 1, 2017 4:07 PM

Murphy Siding
 
blue streak 1

There are unconfirmed reports that some floating top tanks have collasped tops downward due to so much rain on top.  Since water is heavier than most petroleum products can imagine a tank not full would be prone to collaspe under too much water weight ?  Any confirmation one way or the other ?  

I'm not sure I understand what a floating top tank is. Wouldn't any tank made to store petroleum have some pitch to the top in order to drain water?

Can't believe anything built in the vicinity of the Gulf Coast hasn't been built with some pitch on the top surface and a drain system.  While 50+ inch rain events aren't normal - 5 & 10 inch storms are commonplace and I don't believe anyone building structures expects the top surface of those structure to hold 'all' of the storm water - even at the lower accumulation totals.

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, September 1, 2017 4:22 PM

On a roof pitched to the outside it depends if there is aparapet or not. With parapet the drain opening limits the flow rate. Without the water just overruns the roof edge.

With floating top tank you have a parapet without any openings as the roof level varies with amount of stored liquid. So the roof's drainage has to be sufficient:
http://www.ansonindustry.com/uploads/allimg/Floatingrooftankstructure.jpg

So all depends on the rainfall it is designed for. And I'm quite sure it wasn't designed for Harvey's rainfall.
Regards, Volker

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Posted by edblysard on Friday, September 1, 2017 7:21 PM
You can see the skirts around the tops or lids of the tanks…as the fluid level drops, the lids settle down on it, this reduces the air/ fuel mix and reduces the possibility of explosions.
Rain water collects in the center and is pumped off.
Normal for refined but not finished products.
No tank was designed for the amount of rain Harvey brought, and a few skirts did rupture, that product had to be discarded or flared off, or re-refined.
And just as many “hard tops” too, and yes, they are sloped from the center to run off rainwater.
 
As for the Arkema plant in Crosby, just north east of Houston, what is going on is that the organic peroxides they use were removed from their cooling/refrigeration units when it was apparent the power was failing, they didn’t expect it to be off as long as it has been, all the chemical guys here will tell you what happens to organic peroxides when they get hot, and these make their own heat as they degenerate.

 

While it isn’t a life threating event, it is not a good thing either, the best thing to do is stay away and let them explode and burn, they have no commercial value anymore and at best present a hazard in their current form.

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Posted by CMStPnP on Sunday, September 3, 2017 10:39 AM

BaltACD
Can't believe anything built in the vicinity of the Gulf Coast hasn't been built with some pitch on the top surface and a drain system.  While 50+ inch rain events aren't normal - 5 & 10 inch storms are commonplace and I don't believe anyone building structures expects the top surface of those structure to hold 'all' of the storm water - even at the lower accumulation totals.

I understand why the refineries were built in that location in the first place, however.....you would think they would relo the refineries further inland vs the constant repair and on/off switch every time a Hurricane comes by or flooding threatens.   The constant on/off cycle appears to be a little stupifying to me.

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Posted by BaltACD on Sunday, September 3, 2017 10:55 AM

CMStPnP
 
BaltACD
Can't believe anything built in the vicinity of the Gulf Coast hasn't been built with some pitch on the top surface and a drain system.  While 50+ inch rain events aren't normal - 5 & 10 inch storms are commonplace and I don't believe anyone building structures expects the top surface of those structure to hold 'all' of the storm water - even at the lower accumulation totals. 

I understand why the refineries were built in that location in the first place, however.....you would think they would relo the refineries further inland vs the constant repair and on/off switch every time a Hurricane comes by or flooding threatens.   The constant on/off cycle appears to be a little stupifying to me.

Actually, I would have expected the reifineries and chemical plants to have built dykes for their plant's protection, at least against normal flooding situations.  50+ inches over 5 consecutive days is well beyond the norm.

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Posted by MidlandMike on Sunday, September 3, 2017 8:31 PM

BaltACD

 

 
CMStPnP
 
BaltACD
Can't believe anything built in the vicinity of the Gulf Coast hasn't been built with some pitch on the top surface and a drain system.  While 50+ inch rain events aren't normal - 5 & 10 inch storms are commonplace and I don't believe anyone building structures expects the top surface of those structure to hold 'all' of the storm water - even at the lower accumulation totals. 

I understand why the refineries were built in that location in the first place, however.....you would think they would relo the refineries further inland vs the constant repair and on/off switch every time a Hurricane comes by or flooding threatens.   The constant on/off cycle appears to be a little stupifying to me.

 

Actually, I would have expected the reifineries and chemical plants to have built dykes for their plant's protection, at least against normal flooding situations.  50+ inches over 5 consecutive days is well beyond the norm.

 

Refineries are also tied to established infrastructure of pipelines, water transportation, and even rail at least for some outgoing traffic.  Also there is much offshore and onshore production in the area.  There are tie-ins between refineries and petrochemical plants.

Dikes and seawalls could help protect from seawater surges and up stream flooding, but 50" of rain over a square mile of refinery would probably overwhelm any pump design expectation.  

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Posted by ChuckCobleigh on Sunday, September 3, 2017 9:05 PM

MidlandMike
Dikes and seawalls could help protect from seawater surges and up stream flooding, but 50" of rain over a square mile of refinery would probably overwhelm any pump design expectation.  

120KGPM would almost handle it if the 50 inches are spread evenly over five days.  That is a lot of pumping capacity, though, an acre-foot every 2.7 minutes.  Of course, that is a lower bound on the necessary pumping capacity in any scenario putting 50 inches on the ground over a five-day stretch.

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Posted by MidlandMike on Sunday, September 3, 2017 9:26 PM

ChuckCobleigh

 

 
MidlandMike
Dikes and seawalls could help protect from seawater surges and up stream flooding, but 50" of rain over a square mile of refinery would probably overwhelm any pump design expectation.  

 

120KGPM would almost handle it if the 50 inches are spread evenly over five days.  That is a lot of pumping capacity, though, an acre-foot every 2.7 minutes.  Of course, that is a lower bound on the necessary pumping capacity in any scenario putting 50 inches on the ground over a five-day stretch.

 

I suppose it is a similar situation in New Orleans which is below sea level, and all rainwater must be pumped out.

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Posted by tree68 on Monday, September 4, 2017 7:18 AM

ChuckCobleigh
120KGPM would almost handle it...

To put some perspective on that - it's around 100 fire engines worth of capacity...

And all that water has to go somewhere.  

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 4, 2017 8:53 AM

I don't know the American rules but in Germany rain water that was collected within the dikes of a tank farm has to go through a liquid seperator.

If the tank farm dike gets flooded from the outside it can be pumped out as it is considered contaminated on the outside.
Regards, Volker

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Posted by MidlandMike on Monday, September 4, 2017 6:44 PM

VOLKER LANDWEHR

I don't know the American rules but in Germany rain water that was collected within the dikes of a tank farm has to go through a liquid seperator.

If the tank farm dike gets flooded from the outside it can be pumped out as it is considered contaminated on the outside.
Regards, Volker

 

I don't know about other states, but in Michigan oil fields, crude oil tank battery dikes full of rain water need to be tested before being pumped out.  Now days industrial sites must have stormwater management plans in place.

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Posted by ChuckCobleigh on Monday, September 4, 2017 6:57 PM

tree68
And all that water has to go somewhere.  

And that, as they say, is the real rub.

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