On a recent trip on Amtrak's California Zephyr, we pulled into the Denver yards and came to a stop within sight of Union Station, our intended destination. I looked at my watch and counted thirty minutes of complex switching procedures and multiple forward and reverse moves before we finally backed into the station. I question how such an inefficient procedure could possibly be happening in the 21st century? On my layout at home, such a move is quite straightforward, involving one switch and one change of direction. Surely, as Denver's Union Station was being totally renovated recently to become a world-class transportation hub, requiring multiple sections of track to be torn up and replaced to accomodate the new lightrail line to the airport, someone at the same time could have planned an efficient route for the California Zephyr to slide quickly and effortlessly into her berth at the station, which usually happens 730 times each year by the way, barring any mishaps.
And I would love to know why, 135 years ago, anyone would have designed a major passenger train terminal where trains had to reverse direction to enter the station? I don't believe that the situation in Denver was the same as in Chicago. Surely with the huge amount of land available in the relatively undeveloped western states, someone could have come up with a track plan to enable trains to continue their cross-country journeys without having to reverse course at Union Station. I hope that someone with a more comprehensive knowledge of the situation in Denver can provide an answer. When we moved to Denver five years ago, there were still through tracks at the station, but were reportedly only used by trains going north and south.
Colorado Val On a recent trip on Amtrak's California Zephyr, we pulled into the Denver yards and came to a stop within sight of Union Station, our intended destination. I looked at my watch and counted thirty minutes of complex switching procedures and multiple forward and reverse moves before we finally backed into the station. I question how such an inefficient procedure could possibly be happening in the 21st century? On my layout at home, such a move is quite straightforward, involving one switch and one change of direction. Surely, as Denver's Union Station was being totally renovated recently to become a world-class transportation hub, requiring multiple sections of track to be torn up and replaced to accomodate the new lightrail line to the airport, someone at the same time could have planned an efficient route for the California Zephyr to slide quickly and effortlessly into her berth at the station, which usually happens 730 times each year by the way, barring any mishaps. And I would love to know why, 135 years ago, anyone would have designed a major passenger train terminal where trains had to reverse direction to enter the station? I don't believe that the situation in Denver was the same as in Chicago. Surely with the huge amount of land available in the relatively undeveloped western states, someone could have come up with a track plan to enable trains to continue their cross-country journeys without having to reverse course at Union Station. I hope that someone with a more comprehensive knowledge of the situation in Denver can provide an answer. When we moved to Denver five years ago, there were still through tracks at the station, but were reportedly only used by trains going north and south.
Ego!
Many terminal in 'significant' locations were build as dead end terminals where trains were expected to back in. The theory being - this town is a DESTINATION, not a waypoint; pull through stations were for 'lesser' cities. Back in the heyday of rail passenger trainsportation - 1st class or Pullman cars were normally carried on the rear of trains that handled coach and sleeping cars. The 1st class passengers didn't want to walk the furthest distance to reach their accomidations. Secondly, pulling a steam engine (and/or a diesel) into the head house area creates noise and exhaust problem.
Commuter operations that operate into dead end terminals will normally operate into the terminal Cab Car first with the powering diesel being on the outward end of the terminal. Where there are dead end terminals on both ends of a commuter run, the least significant terminal gets the locomotive operating into the head house end.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Denver Union Station didn't used to be a stub-ended terminal, but with the decline of passenger trains it eventually came to be that no trains used the south exit anymore, and it was torn up and the right-of-way sold for new downtown construction, but the old bridges over Cherry Creek for that approach still exist and are located here (enter coordinates in google maps): 39.75148, -105.0053
In the pre-Amtrak past there were many railroad companies that used the station, and none ran through Denver east-west. CB&Q/C&S ran through the city north-south (in line with the station) but most other trains terminated/originated in Denver, so a switching move to/from the coach yard was necesarry anyway. And in the steam era engines were changed on through trains at terminals like Denver anyway, so the replacement engine could simply couple to the other end of the train and haul it away in the new direction after the station stop was completed. When the diesels arrived and the CZ began service 50 years later, the city had built up around the railroads so moving it was unfeasible, especially to benefit just one or two trains a day. And so the back-up move continues today.
But it used to be even worse, a recent issue of Classic Trains magazine had a picture of the CZ and Rio Grande's Yampa Valley Mail waiting at a nearby diamond crossing which operated like a 4-way stop. Having arrived first, a long CB&Q freight was crossing the diamond and both passenger trains had no choice but to stop and wait their turn while the freight wound its way through the yards.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Used to work just fine, then your transit planners (bus people) and light rail (toy train) people got involved....Heavy Rail/ Commuter rail took a back seat as RTD took over and undid the improvements going back to the 1902-1909 overhaul of DUS and DUSY following the 1894 fire. RTD, terrified of FRA rules and outside regulation, tries really hard to hide behind FTA's skirt and you see the result.
In 1968, when my family & I rode the CZ from Chicago to Oakland, the train was backed into the station albeit in a more expiditious manor. At that time there was still a South exit and the tracks had not been truncated. Even in the late 90's, Amtrk's combined CZ, Pioneer, and Desert Wind did the same. Train went around wye and waited for dispatcher or operator to line switch and clear signal for the back-up move into the station. During this process, they went through a car washer. Fairly quick operation. What has changed is I suspect that the stations interlocking plant has been eliminated. Thus the hand thrown switches and the slow operation.
I do not remember more than one backing in Denver each time when passing through. What I do remember was the miserable trip over the Belt Line (violent rocking from side to side) when the train was detoured across Wyoming. As I commented after that trip, apparently when the tracks were reworked to allow service to the airport and other places, the UP's good connection into the station from Cheyenne/Borie (and Kansas City) was taken out. Oh yes, when the City of St. Louis/Kansas City bypassed Cheyenne, it had to back in.
Johnny
When Amtrak's Zephyr ran over the UP route and via Cheyenne (1971-1979), the train headed into Denver Union. During the stop either UP units (1971-1973) or the same engines that brought the train from Chicago were coupled to the rear of the train. After the train was pulled backwards all the way to the Cheyenne station the engines were moved to the front of the train to continue west.
More local to me, the Vermonter was recently rerouted to remove an inefficient direction change at Palmer Mass. There's still a backup move into or out of Springfield, as the station is laid out east-west, at right angles to the Vermonter's north-south route.
St. Louis Union Station and New Orleans Union Station
were other places where trains always backed in.
I know of two particular instances in which a train was headed into the New Orleans station (both were special).
In 1963 or '64, after operating personnel struck one morning, suprevisory personnel took the Panama into from McComb to New Orleans--and headed in, because they wanted to make sure that the train did not take the bumper out.
In 2003, the City of New Orleans that my wife and I rode was headed in because we were running late--and we were able to call our car rental company before it closed for the day.
There may have been other special instances, but the standard procedure was, and is, back in--and the passengers do not have to walk past the engine or headend cars.
Carrollton Avenue was quite convenient for anyone who had a close connection to make, since all inbound and outbound trains stopped there--and I took advantage of it one morning in 1970 when IC#1 was about five hours late arriving and I had to take Southern #2 to Tuscaloosa--I did not want to risk being delayed on the wye.
rcdrye When Amtrak's Zephyr ran over the UP route and via Cheyenne (1971-1979), the train headed into Denver Union. During the stop either UP units (1971-1973) or the same engines that brought the train from Chicago were coupled to the rear of the train. After the train was pulled backwards all the way to the Cheyenne station the engines were moved to the front of the train to continue west.
This was SOP for U.P. pre-Amtrak.
In 1993 I rode Amtrak's Pioneer when the route used UP's Wyoming line. After coming down Sherman Pass the train stopped at Borie (ATK's designated Cheyenne stop) and from there headed directly down the line to Denver. At Denver the train was combined with the Zephyr, so the direction change was hardly noticed. The Zephyr was about 3 hours behind schedule, so I had plenty of time to walk around downtown Denver.
Mike, you did mean Sherman Hill, didn't you?
I should have said Sherman Summit.
MidlandMike In 1993 I rode Amtrak's Pioneer when the route used UP's Wyoming line. After coming down Sherman Pass the train stopped at Borie (ATK's designated Cheyenne stop) and from there headed directly down the line to Denver. At Denver the train was combined with the Zephyr, so the direction change was hardly noticed. The Zephyr was about 3 hours behind schedule, so I had plenty of time to walk around downtown Denver.
Mike, when the trains bypassed Cheyenne, via the Borie cutoff, there was no reason for them to run backwards either way. The backward move was required to call on Cheyenne, which was out of the way, east, of the Denver connection to the transcontinental line.
Passengers had to ride backwards for 100 miles between Denver and Cheyenne, but were pointed in the right direction for the rest of their journey, east or west, without 2 'wye' turns.
I replicated your eastbound ride in 2014, when the Zephyr was detoured over U.P. because of flooding in Colorado.
Yes, that is what I meant at Borie heading directly down the line to Denver. Of course at reaching Denver, the cars were headed in the wrong direction, which would have been corrected in the switching move. Originally my trip to Seattle was to be a quick one, flying in and out. However, at that time Amtrak had a fly-rail combo with United, and I wanted to ride the Overland route thru Wyoming before I feared ATK would eventually cancel the route, which of course they did.
The cars had to be turned at Denver in any case? Wow, I did not realize that. (And may have been too full of wine to realize what was happening when, at dinnertime, No. 6 arrived in Denver off the cutoff two years ago.)
One of the more inefficient thru route stations was L&N's Knoxville station. Was off the main line with about a 2 mile back up from main to station. Have no idea if at any time there were terminating trains to the station. Had 6 - 8 tracks. If SOU RR and L&N had been able to cooperate maybe just one station there ?
One of the few thru cars I can think of to use Denver Union station was the Colorado Springs section of Burlington's Denver(?) Zephyr. The train entered DUS from the northeast, and a few cars were cut off, and continued south to the Springs. Because of directional running on the Joint Line, the train arrived and departed in the other direction from different stations in Colorado Springs.
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