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[Anonymous]

 

Thanks 

[BaltACD]

CPRAILFAN

So I was recently talking with a friend of mine the other day, and we got on the subject of how railroads share power, such as when you see a forign locomotive on another railroad. We then discussed the way railroads use the "power by the hour" method. But, I had a question regarding the usage of the locomotive during the "power by the hour" method. First off, I have heard that the "hour" part of "power by the hour" is based on 60 minutes real time, and I have also heard that it is based by the kilowatt hour. Anybody know which one it is? Also, can any railroad just take a locomotive from another railroad any time anywhere? I would also imagine that the railroad borrowing the locomotive would have to pay for the usage of the locomotive, and be responsible for fuel, but is the railroad using the locomotive responsible for the maintenance of the locomotive as well?

Thanks

Locomotive use between carriers is calculated in 'Horsepower Hours'.  All calculations are based upon the interchange date and time established between carriers on each move between carriers.  All calculations are performed in computer programs and the net differences are setteled with a monetary exchange covering the accounting period.

An SD40 of 3000 HP on a foreign carrier accrews 3000 HpHours.  Where it can get 'involved' is where, lets say, a NS engine is on a CSX train that is delivered to the UP.  That engine would be in CSX's account while it is on the UP - it can get even more confusing if UP would then send the engine to say the CP. 

With a SD40 accruing 72000 HpHours per day, the 'numbers' each carriers will be calculating will be very large - however the net differences, as numbers, are much smaller.

My carrier has somewhere between 100 & 200 units off line at any time, they also have between 100 & 200 foreign carrier units on line at any time.

Each carrier is responsible for 'running repairs' to a foreign unit that is on its line.  If there is some form of 'major' defect that happens, the foreign carrier will be contacted for instructions as to how that defect should be repaired or the unit sent home for repair.  The rules concerning repairs to locomotives are similar to the rules the exist for the repair of cars that are used in interchange service between carriers.  Accounts are kept by each carrier for both their car and locomotive repairs and on a periodic basis the net differences between the accounts are settled with a monetary exhcange.

[dehusman]

Railroads have "interline service agreements" between them that spell out how the engines will be accounted for and who is responsible for what.

Normally engines are paid on a "horsepower hour" basis, the time the engine is interchanged to the other road to the time the engine is interchanged back multiplied by the horsepower of the engine.  There are some additives for AC engines (they have effectively more "horsepower" than then nominal rating.  In addition the fuel is a zero sum measure, how much fuel was on the locomotive on interchange to vs. how much fuel is on the locomotive is on the interchange back.  Running repairs (water, oil, fuel, brake shoes) are the responsibility of the other road.   Federal inspections are the responsibility of the owning road (normally).  If an engine fails the horepower hours stop and the engine may be returned to the owning road.  On any other situation the railroads talk and agree on what the disposition of the engine is.

The use of the engines is specified in the agreements.  For example if engines are interchanged on a coal train, the expectation is tha those engines will come back on the return of the coal train.  When paying back horsepower hours the the extra engines may be free runners or they may be kept in certain service.  Depends what the railroads set up.

Railroad balance horsepower hours (hphrs) and fuel more or less monthly between themselves.   The balances can have many millions of hphrs swings.  Unless a railroad gets hugely out of balance, normally no money changes hands they flow of engines to balance the hphrs back out.

The agreements with shortlines and terminals are usually quite different, many having a "free time" built into the agreement.  If railroad A delivers a coal train to the shortline to take to a power plant, the shortline might have 48 hrs IR to ID before they have to pay the Class 1 hphrs on the coal train's engines.

[Murphy Siding]

    Would there then be an incentive to keep that foreign power you are paying for moving as much as possible, in order to depreciate somebody else's locomotive  verses your own?

[Wizlish]

Murphy Siding

Would there then be an incentive to keep that foreign power you are paying for moving as much as possible, in order to depreciate somebody else's locomotive  versus your own?

There is, and I think it's been discussed here before. 

In a slightly different context, I remember the story that Erie-Lackawanna not only got 'preferential' use out of the New Jersey Transit U34CHs 'over the weekend' but often returned them with low fuel tanks, too.  Wasn't there a similar story about C&NW?

If I recall correctly, at least some of the 'power by the hour' agreements were predicated on 100% equipment utilization.  If so, yes, you'd use those locomotives preferentially (and perhaps even shut down other forms of power to save as much wear and tear as possible).  However, the situation would also depend on power balancing and adequate traffic to make full exclusive use of the 'special' power.

[dehusman]

Murphy Siding

    Would there then be an incentive to keep that foreign power you are paying for moving as much as possible, in order to depreciate somebody else's locomotive  verses your own?

 

So when you buy a new car, you rent a car too so you can pay rent on the car and pay the car payment, but save the wear and tear on your new car?

 

Normally you keep the foreign engines because you don't have enough of your own.  If you have business spike and you need 500 engines but only own 450, you might delay returning foreign units to temporarily give you the 50 units.  The risk is that at some point you will have to pay back those engines so at some point you have to be able to run with 400 engines because you have 50 of yours on other lines paying back the hphrs.

[dehusman]

Wizlish

If I recall correctly, at least some of the 'power by the hour' agreements were predicated on 100% equipment utilization.

Just to be clear, "power by the hour" and horsepower hours using interchanged run through agreements are NOT the same thing.  Power by the hour is a leasing system where a locomotive lessor rents locomotives to a railroad.  Interchanged locomotives on run through trains is NOT power by the hour.  Two completely different things.  If you rent a truck from a rental company, that's power by the hour.  If your buddy wants to borrow your rented truck for a couple hours because his truck is in the shop, and tells you you can borrow his truck when its out of the shop,  that's horsepower hours.

[carnej1]

Wizlish

 

 

Murphy Siding

Would there then be an incentive to keep that foreign power you are paying for moving as much as possible, in order to depreciate somebody else's locomotive  versus your own?

 

 

 

In a slightly different context, I remember the story that Erie-Lackawanna not only got 'preferential' use out of the New Jersey Transit U34CHs 'over the weekend' but often returned them with low fuel tanks, too.  Wasn't there a similar story about C&NW?

 

 IIRC, the U34CH issue was with Conrail's usage of New Jersey Transit units during the freight carrier's early power-short days. During the Erie Lackawanna era EL itself owned the U34CH fleet while it was providing commuter service under contract to what became NJT....

IINM, Conrail would use the U34's for weekend freight and sometimes the units would travel too far away to make it back for Monday morning commuter runs leaving NJT short of power......

[Murphy Siding]

dehusman

 

Murphy Siding

    Would there then be an incentive to keep that foreign power you are paying for moving as much as possible, in order to depreciate somebody else's locomotive  verses your own?

 

 

 

 

So when you buy a new car, you rent a car too so you can pay rent on the car and pay the car payment, but save the wear and tear on your new car?

 

Normally you keep the foreign engines because you don't have enough of your own.  If you have business spike and you need 500 engines but only own 450, you might delay returning foreign units to temporarily give you the 50 units.  The risk is that at some point you will have to pay back those engines so at some point you have to be able to run with 400 engines because you have 50 of yours on other lines paying back the hphrs.

 

   OK.   I see what you're saying. That makes sense.

       Sometimes I've seen empty grain trains come in with foreign power.  For reasons I've never understood, some of those trains are broken up into 3 or 4 sections so they'll fit in the local yard before being reassembled and sent to a load out facility 2 to 3 days later.  It just seemed like you have a taxi sitting there with the meter running, while using BNSF power to run trains around the area.  It just seemed odd.

      Recently, I've seen leased locomotives parked in the yard while BNSF locomotives were pulling trains- similar thoughts go through my head.

[jeffhergert]

Wizlish

 

Murphy Siding

Would there then be an incentive to keep that foreign power you are paying for moving as much as possible, in order to depreciate somebody else's locomotive  versus your own?

 

 

There is, and I think it's been discussed here before. 

In a slightly different context, I remember the story that Erie-Lackawanna not only got 'preferential' use out of the New Jersey Transit U34CHs 'over the weekend' but often returned them with low fuel tanks, too.  Wasn't there a similar story about C&NW?

If I recall correctly, at least some of the 'power by the hour' agreements were predicated on 100% equipment utilization.  If so, yes, you'd use those locomotives preferentially (and perhaps even shut down other forms of power to save as much wear and tear as possible).  However, the situation would also depend on power balancing and adequate traffic to make full exclusive use of the 'special' power.

 

Some of the old heads talk about how the CNW would sometimes park a specific coal train in the siding at Tama, IA for staging.  It came off the BN (before CNW got into the Powder River) and BN power would run through, with a CNW leader for the ATC.  While the train sat the CNW, being short on power at the time, would pull all the engines off it and use them on other trains.  

Jeff