schlimm As I recall the problems in the UK occurred when BR was privatized, including the network (track, signals and infrastructure). Those problems were solved when that sector was "re-nationalized" as a quasi-governmental corporation. Rather than stompng one's foot and saying it won't work here or invoking futuremodal, why couldn't a similar nationalized infrastructure with private (and public passenger) operators work here? That hybrid system in also being used in several European countries. Even here, private freight operators use Amtrak and Metra-owned trackage. Infrastructure is strictly a cost center for the rails. Turning it over to a quasi-government ownership would free up a lot of capital which currently has low rate of return for more profitable ventures.
As I recall the problems in the UK occurred when BR was privatized, including the network (track, signals and infrastructure). Those problems were solved when that sector was "re-nationalized" as a quasi-governmental corporation.
Rather than stompng one's foot and saying it won't work here or invoking futuremodal, why couldn't a similar nationalized infrastructure with private (and public passenger) operators work here? That hybrid system in also being used in several European countries. Even here, private freight operators use Amtrak and Metra-owned trackage. Infrastructure is strictly a cost center for the rails. Turning it over to a quasi-government ownership would free up a lot of capital which currently has low rate of return for more profitable ventures.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
I have often heard people claim that our entire infrastructure is crumbling and in need of replacement. For elaboration, search “our crumbling infrastructure.”
Most of the infrastructure is government owned and maintained. How does a responsible owner of infrastructure justify deferring maintenance on it and letting it crumble while in use? Given this track record, do we really want to add the maintenance of a nationalized rail infrastructure to the government’s list of things to do?
One question I have always had on "open access" is how the terminals work. Getting the trains over the railroad is easy.
How were they built?
Where do they go when they "get there"?
Unit trains are relatively easy. Many of the groups I have heard clamoring for open access are "loose car" shippers. That means switching which means yards.
A current yard handles 20 trains in one direction and makes 25 blocks outbound. That business is now split among 4 operators, each now have 5 trains and each needs 10 blocks outbound. Where do they do that? Are the proponents thinking of each operator builds their own yard? Is there one terminal company that does all the switching for all 4 operators? How does a yard designed to make 25 blocks make 40 blocks efficiently?
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Murphy SidingMaybe we could start with something smaller first, and see how the quasi-government ownership works out. I suggest starting with the Post Office.
Try getting along without our road network, the airways, your police and fire departments, your water supply and the post office for two years and let us know how that works out for you?
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4 of the largest publicly owned railroad corrdors are 1. The Cincinnati Southern owned but leased to NS. 2. Carolina Railroad Company owned by the state of North Carolina but on a exsclusive lease to NS for 30 years. 3 Vermont Railway- ROW owned by the State of Vermont but leased to Vermont Railway on a Exsclusive Lease. 4 The Northeast Corridor-Owned by Amtrak trackage rights leased on a section by section basis to Norfolk Southern and Providence and Worchester and to SEPTA,MDMTA,Metro North and MBTA. All these are on a long term lease arrangement and no open access.
schlimm Murphy Siding Maybe we could start with something smaller first, and see how the quasi-government ownership works out. I suggest starting with the Post Office. Try getting along without our road network, the airways, your police and fire departments, your water supply and the post office for two years and let us know how that works out for you?
Murphy Siding Maybe we could start with something smaller first, and see how the quasi-government ownership works out. I suggest starting with the Post Office.
In response to schlimm's proposal I can say that governments, federal, state and local, have done a less than stellar job of maintaining infrastructure. Given bureaucratic ineptitude the same fate would likely befall the railroads.
Norm
I think that it's less an issue of bureaucratic ineptitude than an unwillingness by the public to pay a higher fuel tax to pay for it.
Norm48327 In response to schlimm's proposal I can say that governments, federal, state and local, have done a less than stellar job of maintaining infrastructure. Given bureaucratic ineptitude the same fate would likely befall the railroads.
Ownership, whether government, quasi-government or state, has little to do with the quality of maintenance. Compare any US private rail line's best RoW with almst any mainline RoW in Germany, largely government-owned since inception. There really is no comparison.
schlimm Norm48327 In response to schlimm's proposal I can say that governments, federal, state and local, have done a less than stellar job of maintaining infrastructure. Given bureaucratic ineptitude the same fate would likely befall the railroads. Ownership, whether government, quasi-government or state, has little to do with the quality of maintenance. Compare any US private rail line's best RoW with almst any mainline RoW in Germany, largely government-owned since inception. There really is no comparison.
Come look at the interstate, federal and state highways in Michigan and tell me that.
I suspect that ROW maintenance will be the least of our worries, inasmuch as I would see the system run as toll roads. Since any operator would be able to operate on any route, a section with poor maintenance would likely be avoided if at all possible.
Bringing all signal systems into a unified system will be a huge task, although once it's done, it will mean that anyone can literally go anywhere - no learning several rulebooks.
The issues will be on the operations end - stuff like yards, scheduling traffic, methods of sorting traffic (Conrail shared assets?). As has been mentioned, will yards be capable of handling traffic for several operators? Who gets priority for a given piece of track? Will there be room for independent operators?
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Norm48327 Schlimm: Ownership, whether government, quasi-government or state, has little to do with the quality of maintenance. Compare any US private rail line's best RoW with almst any mainline RoW in Germany, largely government-owned since inception. There really is no comparison. NORM: Come look at the interstate, federal and state highways in Michigan and tell me that.
Schlimm: Ownership, whether government, quasi-government or state, has little to do with the quality of maintenance. Compare any US private rail line's best RoW with almst any mainline RoW in Germany, largely government-owned since inception. There really is no comparison.
NORM: Come look at the interstate, federal and state highways in Michigan and tell me that.
No need to. The roads (including toll roads) in much of Illinois are as bad or worse. And that is my point. The ownership doesn't matter. The Autobahs in Germany (basis for our modern Interstate sustem) make many of our Interstates feel like oxen tracks. It's the engineering design, union cooperation, degree of political pork and construction. By contrast the roads in the former DDR (E. Germany) were horrible until 5-10 years after reunification.
BTW, the DOT test rails in Pueblo look pretty good. I doubt if any of our private RoWs are any better.
schlimm Norm48327 Schlimm: Ownership, whether government, quasi-government or state, has little to do with the quality of maintenance. Compare any US private rail line's best RoW with almst any mainline RoW in Germany, largely government-owned since inception. There really is no comparison. NORM: Come look at the interstate, federal and state highways in Michigan and tell me that. No need to. The roads (including toll roads) in much of Illinois are as bad or worse. And that is my point. The ownership doesn't matter. The Autobahs in Germany (basis for our modern Interstate sustem) make many of our Interstates feel like oxen tracks. It's the engineering design, union cooperation, degree of political pork and construction. By contrast the roads in the former DDR (E. Germany) were horrible until 5-10 years after reunification. BTW, the DOT test rails in Pueblo look pretty good. I doubt if any of our private RoWs are any better.
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schlimm BTW, the DOT test rails in Pueblo look pretty good. I doubt if any of our private RoWs are any better.
dehusman One question I have always had on "open access" is how the terminals work. Getting the trains over the railroad is easy. How were they built? Where do they go when they "get there"? Unit trains are relatively easy. Many of the groups I have heard clamoring for open access are "loose car" shippers. That means switching which means yards. A current yard handles 20 trains in one direction and makes 25 blocks outbound. That business is now split among 4 operators, each now have 5 trains and each needs 10 blocks outbound. Where do they do that? Are the proponents thinking of each operator builds their own yard? Is there one terminal company that does all the switching for all 4 operators? How does a yard designed to make 25 blocks make 40 blocks efficiently?
Exactly. In Europe open access operators operate almost entirely unit trains, with the national operators still hauling all of the loose car traffic. Some sort of reciprocal switching may be feasible if undesirable, but open access is not.
What loose-car freight railroading remains, you might add, with 95% of such business on trucks.
Look, whose home is more likely to be more beautiful and better kept, that of an owner or a renter? Whose store is likely to be more profitable and better able to make customers happy, one that rents its building or one that rents it?
The owner will always be motivated to make improvements because he or she knows they will benefit him or her. The renter is never 100% sure of that, while the one who rents makes improvements (usually) only if greater income will result, in other words, an ability to raise the rent.
Vertical intergration in railroading has always made sence. What about cooperation between the operating department and physical plant for track maintenance?
Why take the greatest rail freight system in the world and turn it in to a ward of the state?
Not everything is better in Europe, and specifically in this case, most certainly not freight railroading.
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