Whatever happened to the Rio Grande?

[Anonymous]

This is much like the Penn central thread, I know nothing about Rio Grande RR, except I keep seeing pictures- What happened to it, where did it go, how did it go, what did it do, accomplish and how did it go belly up?

Not to bombard anyone, if you only know one question or have info, please share.

Howcome Railpictures.net doens't have any Rio grande Categories for pictures?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevinstheRRman


Howcome Railpictures.net doens't have any Rio grande Categories for pictures?

They do. It is under the "Fallen Flags (Non-operating)" category as "Denver & Rio Grand Western Railroad"

According to the search there are 213 photos.

Good Luck!
Dennis

[AntonioFP45]

If memory serves, the Denver, Rio Grande, & Western was "gobbled up" by the Southern Pacific, which in turn dissappeared into the Union Pacific.

Looks like the age old question: Who gained what?

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

If memory serves, the Denver, Rio Grande, & Western was "gobbled up" by the Southern Pacific, which in turn dissappeared into the Union Pacific.

Looks like the age old question: Who gained what?

Was the Southern Pacific the one doing the gobbling?

Gabe

[kevarc]

Actually, it was the DRGW that gobbled up the SP. It was Ansultz (sp) and his money that bought the SP.

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevarc

Actually, it was the DRGW that gobbled up the SP. It was Ansultz (sp) and his money that bought the SP.

So that is what SP fans mean when they say "to add Ansultz to injury, they bought us."

Gabe

[Anonymous]

And after Anshutz and the Rio Grande bought the SP, then he sold then both to the UP and retained a position the board of directors.
A little side note, the rolling stock leasing co. called Golden West Service is in his wifes name. You think he's got some money?????

[Anonymous]

There is a Rio Grande Train operating at Knott's Berry Farm in Buena Park, California. Knott's also owns a Galloping Goose. This is how DRGW became my favorite railroad.

BTW,
Who operates the Rio Grande ski train in Colorado if Rio Grande doesn't?

[Anonymous]

Here a recent topic to review. Good stuff.

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=23086&REPLY_ID=221791#221791

[eolafan]

You might find it interesting to hear that I saw a Rio Grande painted SD40-T2(?) tunnel motor unit on an eastbound UP manifest freight through Kirkwood, MO yesterday (the cab was sub-lettered UP). This units paint was still in remarkably good condition considering the age of the paint job and UP efforts to repaint them.

[Junctionfan]

I still see their rollingstock about. I've seen covered hoppers, gondolas and autoracks.

[zardoz]

Why did Anshultz, whose own railroad (DRGW) was doing so well that he could afford to buy the SP, decided to eliminate the DRGW identity in favor of the (failing) SP identity?

I'm sure to perturb the SP fans out there, but I always thought the DRGW units looked so cool, and they seemed to convey an image of power. Granted, in the 'good old days', the SP was much more respected, but when the sale time came, the SP seemed to be a shadow of it's former glory, whereas the DRGW seemed to be very robust.

[kevarc]

While I am not sure, their could have been many tax and other fiscal concerns that called for retaining the SP name. It could be much the same type of situation when Chessie was formed. The B&O name was retained for a couple of reasons. 1. Tax exempt status of many B&O properties. If B&O was merged away, these properties would lose their tax exempt status. 2. Deal cut with the City of Baltimore - Again tax and other considerations had to be taken into consideration. The City had very strong feelings about this as the B&O and WM were major shippers through the Port of Baltimore and the City Fathers were very worried that traffic would be move to Newport News on the C&O. Baltimore was at a serious disadvantage to Newport News. It is a lot further to the Atlantic Ocean from Baltimore than from Newport News. That is why B&O was retained.

[jokestre]

Phillip Anshultz bought the SP then ran into the ground pretty much. Sold SP to UP. DRGW was a gold mine back in the day.

[Anonymous]

Phil Anschutz did not milk the SP and drive it into the ground. It was a sick line long before Anschutz came on the scene. The problem was single track, loss of market and a myrid of other problems that have been well documented in other categories in this forum.

[Anonymous]

Probably more accurate to say someting like;

"The SP was in such bad shape that it sucked
the life blood from the D&RGW and neither could survive."

[daveklepper]

Does anyone remember that the last days of the Rio Grande Zephyr had it running only to Grand Junction and not to SLC because of the Thistle mud slide? I rode it and made the connection to a light plane commercial flight at GJ. When Amtrak took over, they had to continue running via the UP for about six weeks, with a protection bus coving the D&RGW Stations, until the new line and tunnel were pushed through.

[eolafan]

A very interesting book with lots of great photos of the Rio Grande Zephyr is
"Never on Wenesday". You might want to get a copy.

[bobwilcox]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

Kevarc: I'm not aware of any SP tax exemptions such as you describe for B&O. However, SSW had a low-interest FRA loan for its purchase and rehabilitation of the Cotton Rock, thus SSW actually ended up as the surviving corporation, not Rio Grande and not SP.

I remember water cooler talk that the SP was the surving company to avoid a property tax reassesment of SP land in CA.

[Anonymous]

So it didn't go fut, it was justt bought out?

[kenneo]

The SP almost never made money after 1960 and perhaps earlier. The railroad, that is. The Corporation owned the railroad, the land grants and the various mineral, timber and ancillory rights, the pipelines, the truck lines and such. It was all of the rest of the stuff that kept the railroad afloat. When the ATSF and the SP planned to merge, everything except the railroad was acquired by the ATSF and when the merger was denied, that left the railroad there to support itself. It couldn't, and that is why Anschutz was able to buy it. Any other railroad could have but was smart enough not to.

Phil Anschutz is no fool. Nor is he slow on the uptake. I don't think he had the idea of becomming the majority stockholder of the UP when he first bought into the DRGW, and then the SP/SSW/SPCSL, but he certainly had it figured out later. The UP wanted the SP so badly that they let himbuy the UP.

[locomutt]

According to the "Adults Only" thread;it went ^^ up!!!!!!![:D][}:)]

[daveklepper]

Never on Wednesday is a great book. Also very recommend is Giant's Ladder, the story of the Denver and Salt Lake and of a truly great man and hero for me, David Moffat. Also recommended are Narrow Gauge in the Rockies and Main Line through the Rockies. All are wonderful books with wonderful photographs. I'd put in a plug for Kalmbach at this point but someone might think I am just trying to get my articles published.

Another great book that would delight everyone on this thread is Westing's Apex of the Atlantics, the story of the PRR E-6. Also excellent photographs and line drawings. If modelers want to superdetail an E-6, this is a must book.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wrwatkins

Phil Anschutz did not milk the SP and drive it into the ground. It was a sick line long before Anschutz came on the scene. The problem was single track, loss of market and a myrid of other problems that have been well documented in other categories in this forum.

Agreed[^]. The story is this.........ATSF + SP = to separate roads in S.California. Then in the early 1980's, ATSF+SP= talks of merger,then in 1985, ATSF+SP=SPSF, make Santa Fe Southern Pacific Corporation, start painting locomotives in yellow,red,and black.1986 ICC says no. SPSF is to split the SP[V]. DRGW sees an opportunity to buy the SP,and does with Anschutz ,and his vast oil investments and junk bonds from NY banks. then later in years,the UP[V],buys the SP and gets itself in alot of trouble with congested raillines, sidings and the STB. There are 4 books that tell alot about the DRGW and the SP, "Railroad Mergers: Insight and Analysis, by Simmons - Boardman Company, " SPSF 1986-1987 Motive Power Review","SP into the 90's"; and "Southern Pacific Motive Power Pictorial 1987-1988 the Interim years" all three by Joseph W. Shine.