Mudslinging, moderators, and you

[Anonymous]

schlimm

richhotrain

zugmann

According to the latest rules posted on this forum, there is no ban on hobos or graffiti.

Looks like Angela deleted those two prohibitions on Friday morning.

Rich

The graffiti thread has been running since July 3, I believe, almost a month before the rules changed.

 

There was also a ban at one time on discussion of "waving."

[John WR]

I have no problem with posts directed at issues, even political issues.  But there are posts which make personal comments that I find inappropriate.   I have become discouraged and doubt there will be a real change.   

[tree68]

I would opine that this iteration of "graffiti" has focused on its effect on railroads.

In the past the discussions have often centered on the "artistic merit" of the activity versus the legality thereof, and the results were usually not pretty.

The same can be said for hobos.  The contentious discussions usually involved some folks who found the modern version of the activity intriguing (and may have actually participated in same), while others pointed out the legal aspects as well as the relative safety of "hitching a ride."

One fellow even posted pictures of his experience here.  Whoooo-eeee!  Did that get interesting!  You won't find that thread in the archives.

Methinks that politics are, indeed, part and parcel of today's world of railroading.  I would opine that generic references (ie, to Congress/legislatures as a whole, etc) are usually not an issue.  The problems seem to come when partisan politics, and especially specific politicians, enter the discussion.  Invariably, the discussion turns into "your party/politician is a poopy-pants and mine isn't," then goes downhill from there.

[schlimm]

Murray

There was also a ban at one time on discussion of "waving."

What did that mean actually?   I notice it is in quotes, so maybe some euphemism?

[zugmann]

schlimm

The graffiti thread has been running since July 3, I believe, almost a month before the rules changed.

We haven't had any posted rules on this forum in ages.

I think the model board had some posted, but I don't wonder over there much anymore. 

[gardendance]

I don't wonder enough to wander over there either. I just wish somebody would wittily point out my spelling mistakes.

[Euclid]

schlimm

Murray

There was also a ban at one time on discussion of "waving."

What did that mean actually?   I notice it is in quotes, so maybe some euphemism?

There was at least one thread where railfans wanted railroaders to return a wave as they passed by on trains.  Then there were some comments about how irritating it was that railfans expect railroaders to wave from trains as they pass.  Some even flat out refused to do it.  It got pretty nasty and was locked.  I seem to recall there was a second waving thread that followed the same course.  I don’t recall that waving was placed off limits for a topic, though.     

We also once had a thread about how trains don’t need to slow down in fog.  That one also got pretty nasty and had to be locked. 

[Semper Vaporo]

schlimm

Murray

There was also a ban at one time on discussion of "waving."

What did that mean actually?   I notice it is in quotes, so maybe some euphemism?

Nope... I am sure it is simply pointing out the subject was people that wave at trains.  Some were (are) quite angry about that action and the discussion devolved into a war of name calling.  None of the attempts to placate any of the participants was of any good.  The subject had to be locked and forcibly discouraged. 

There is no "middle ground" allowed by some people... and for some, even if you finally agree with them, they will argue that you don't understand and thus are still wrong.

Then there are those that cannot stop at just ignoring a subject, they have to hurl insults in ridiculously oblique angles by taking the thread totally off topic.

I wish people could just state their opinion ONCE and then stop posting, instead of replying to replies to replies to replies with the same statements, without adding any new information.  There is this human need to be the last person to post their opinion so it will appear to the correct viewpoint.

 

[zugmann]

Semper Vaporo

I wish people could just state their opinion ONCE and then stop posting, instead of replying to replies to replies to replies with the same statements, without adding any new information.  There is this human need to be the last person to post their opinion so it will appear to the correct viewpoint.

Where's the fun in that??

[schlimm]

Semper Vaporo

schlimm

Murray

There was also a ban at one time on discussion of "waving."

What did that mean actually?   I notice it is in quotes, so maybe some euphemism?

Nope... I am sure it is simply pointing out the subject was people that wave at trains.  Some were (are) quite angry about that action and the discussion devolved into a war of name calling.  None of the attempts to placate any of the participants was of any good.  The subject had to be locked and forcibly discouraged. 

Call me dense, but why should anyone get angry about people waving at a train?   In my experience in most countries including here, the train drivers/engineers like it, see it as being friendly and wave back.

[tree68]

schlimm

Semper Vaporo

schlimm

Murray

There was also a ban at one time on discussion of "waving."

What did that mean actually?   I notice it is in quotes, so maybe some euphemism?

Nope... I am sure it is simply pointing out the subject was people that wave at trains.  Some were (are) quite angry about that action and the discussion devolved into a war of name calling.  None of the attempts to placate any of the participants was of any good.  The subject had to be locked and forcibly discouraged. 

Call me dense, but why should anyone get angry about people waving at a train?   In my experience in most countries including here, the train drivers/engineers like it, see it as being friendly and wave back.

As I recall, at least one actual engineer stated that he never waved back.  Whether fact or tongue-in-cheek, the ensuing discussion raised a ruckus, as has been mentioned.  Said engineer probably falls in with the group who can't stand railfans (which makes one wonder why he was on the forum in the first place), or, as I said, did so tongue-in-cheek, just to stir up the pot...

I think some people just couldn't bring themselves to believe that anyone would feel that way...

[schlimm]

tree68

As I recall, at least one actual engineer stated that he never waved back.  Whether fact or tongue-in-cheek, the ensuing discussion raised a ruckus, as has been mentioned.  Said engineer probably falls in with the group who can't stand railfans (which makes one wonder why he was on the forum in the first place), or, as I said, did so tongue-in-cheek, just to stir up the pot...

I think some people just couldn't bring themselves to believe that anyone would feel that way...

I don't want to dredge up some old cat fight, but it is hard to imagine most people arguing about that so strongly the thread got locked, whether it was sarcasm or not.

[tree68]

schlimm

I don't want to dredge up some old cat fight, but it is hard to imagine most people arguing about that so strongly the thread got locked, whether it was sarcasm or not.

Trust me....

[schlimm]

OK.

[CMStPnP]

tree68

I would opine that this iteration of "graffiti" has focused on its effect on railroads.

In the past the discussions have often centered on the "artistic merit" of the activity versus the legality thereof, and the results were usually not pretty.

The same can be said for hobos.  The contentious discussions usually involved some folks who found the modern version of the activity intriguing (and may have actually participated in same), while others pointed out the legal aspects as well as the relative safety of "hitching a ride."

One fellow even posted pictures of his experience here.  Whoooo-eeee!  Did that get interesting!  You won't find that thread in the archives.

Methinks that politics are, indeed, part and parcel of today's world of railroading.  I would opine that generic references (ie, to Congress/legislatures as a whole, etc) are usually not an issue.  The problems seem to come when partisan politics, and especially specific politicians, enter the discussion.  Invariably, the discussion turns into "your party/politician is a poopy-pants and mine isn't," then goes downhill from there.

Thats probably due to confusion among Trains Magazine marketing.    I think they need to make a choice.    Either they are a publication for railfans or they are a industry publication.     I think they are light years from the latter BUT I see them accepting and publishing ads in the magazine for railroaders so I think they need to be both to pay the bills and stay in business.

Agree that Graffitti and hoboes have no business being romanticized.     However, to ban discussion on either topic?    Really?      I can see shutting down the discussions where the author attempts to romanticize either...........simple fix.   Change the rules to read that threads that promote or romanticize graffiti and hobo lifestyle are prohibited.     See the rules are narrowed and less crybabies running off to the Mods to complain..........yet we can still discuss the topics as mature adults.      See how that works with rule modification?       Moderation need is reduced and posters have a broader discussion.

[gardendance]

I agree it is hard to imagine most people arguing about waving, but I bet it was more like 1 or 2 people arguing. As I pointed out before, I imagine locking the thread probably gave those 1 or 2 people a great feeling of power, since they, in my opinion, probably wanted to get their voices heard and then have everybody else shut out. If my guess is correct then that type of moderation does no good. May I mention again that it rewards the bad guys and punishes the rest of us.

Please let me mention again that I bet nobody participating here feels their one of the ones about whom the moderators are concerned, it's always some other guy who's causing trouble.

[edblysard]

I confess…it was Wayne who did it….

[tree68]

gardendance

I agree it is hard to imagine most people arguing about waving, but I bet it was more like 1 or 2 people arguing.

Time makes the details fuzzy, but you're probably fairly close.  The issue is that eventually the discussion narrows down to "is, too" "is not" and it isn't really a discussion any more.  It's just two (or a few) people wanting to have the last word.  

[Euclid]

gardendance

I agree it is hard to imagine most people arguing about waving, but I bet it was more like 1 or 2 people arguing.

It was not just one or two people arguing.  It developed a rather widespread and deep dispute because several railfans expressed that they felt it was a nice touch to wave at the crew and get a wave back, and there were comments that a return wave was not always given.

Some railroaders took angry exception to that as though it were an unreasonable expectation to expect a return wave.  It got intensely personal as railfans thought it was Grinch-like to refuse to return a wave, and railroaders said they were too serious and down to business to wave.  It was a fairly long thread that spent some time getting up to hurricane strength.  I am pretty sure there was a second thread along the same lines just maybe a week or so later. 

The legendary fog thread also developed the same sort of dynamics. 

[selector]

tree68

schlimm

Semper Vaporo

schlimm

Murray

There was also a ban at one time on discussion of "waving."

What did that mean actually?   I notice it is in quotes, so maybe some euphemism?

Nope... I am sure it is simply pointing out the subject was people that wave at trains.  Some were (are) quite angry about that action and the discussion devolved into a war of name calling.  None of the attempts to placate any of the participants was of any good.  The subject had to be locked and forcibly discouraged. 

Call me dense, but why should anyone get angry about people waving at a train?   In my experience in most countries including here, the train drivers/engineers like it, see it as being friendly and wave back.

As I recall, at least one actual engineer stated that he never waved back.  Whether fact or tongue-in-cheek, the ensuing discussion raised a ruckus, as has been mentioned.  Said engineer probably falls in with the group who can't stand railfans (which makes one wonder why he was on the forum in the first place), or, as I said, did so tongue-in-cheek, just to stir up the pot...

I think some people just couldn't bring themselves to believe that anyone would feel that way...

Larry, it was at about that time when, between this forum and the MR forum, it became apparent to quite a few of us that some form of volunteer moderation was in order.  Also, do you recall an adjunct discussion (cough) on "foamers"?  Between waving and that other lamentable discussion, the mood of the forum here wasn't all that great for a while.  Also, one Michael Sol (genuflect...) was adept at that time with stirring things up.  Oh, and Future Modal.

Aaahh...the good ol' days....

[selector]

gardendance

I agree it is hard to imagine most people arguing about waving, but I bet it was more like 1 or 2 people arguing. As I pointed out before, I imagine locking the thread probably gave those 1 or 2 people a great feeling of power, since they, in my opinion, probably wanted to get their voices heard and then have everybody else shut out. If my guess is correct then that type of moderation does no good. May I mention again that it rewards the bad guys and punishes the rest of us. (Changes are mine.)

Please let me mention again that I bet nobody participating here feels their one of the ones about whom the moderators are concerned, it's always some other guy who's causing trouble.

All moderation has that effect.  There are many who want to play the game, and a few intransigent participants who get the proverbial bone or bit in their teeth, and they won't let go.  Typically, the threads that get heavily culled, locked, or deleted, are highly divisive and get maximum participation.  The view count blooms rapidly, but it becomes a contest of wills between two-to-ten people with the same ones posting unhelpful and non-resolutionary retorts for several pages.

As to your last point, not a chance.  Once you spend some time here, especially moderating, and most especially stepping through one of the threads of the kind we are discussing, it is very clear that the personalities involved have no illusions as to their opinions and their ability to continue to wage their wars. There is also no doubt as to their mutual dislike and lack of respect.  It begs the question: why would our hosts, who are always the final arbiters of the 'need', seek, select, and put to work volunteers who were willing to perform the work our hosts felt was needed if it were NOT needed in their minds?

No, you can be sure that, at the time at least, they felt there was a rising tide of problem threads, often resurrected with slightly couched terminology, and they would predictably end the same way, always with complaints coming from people who had yet to post in that thread. I can't tell you how often this happened, but quite often.  People who had not locked horns with anyone else, and often not yet having posted at all in this heated discussions, would send us a PM and challenge us as to why we were letting the spectacle continue.  Naturally, if it was just out of our mild curiosity, it wasn't a good reason at all if it had run afoul of the rules.  Often, we hadn't gone into the thread because we were busy dealing with other problems, or simply not on line on a Sunday.

Moderation, if done well, is unobtrusive as part of its good effect, but it must also be effective.  Effectiveness is always anchored around standards, policies or rules, both internal and external to the organization.  Each onlooker gets to evaluate for himself the effectiveness of any enterprise, and should exercise that right.  At the end of the day, though, the final decision is made by the person(s) running the show.  When moderators were introduced, our hosts felt they were needed.  They may not be needed today.

But I won't be betting my next pension cheque on it. Leopards don't change their spots.

-Crandell

[Anonymous]

schlimm

Murray

There was also a ban at one time on discussion of "waving."

What did that mean actually?   I notice it is in quotes, so maybe some euphemism?

 

 

No Sir.  There was at one time a ban (possibly temporary) on the discussion of waving.  Specifically, Engineers/Conductors waiving from the cab of their unit.

[Murphy Siding]

schlimm

tree68

As I recall, at least one actual engineer stated that he never waved back.  Whether fact or tongue-in-cheek, the ensuing discussion raised a ruckus, as has been mentioned.  Said engineer probably falls in with the group who can't stand railfans (which makes one wonder why he was on the forum in the first place), or, as I said, did so tongue-in-cheek, just to stir up the pot...

I think some people just couldn't bring themselves to believe that anyone would feel that way...

I don't want to dredge up some old cat fight, but it is hard to imagine most people arguing about that so strongly the thread got locked, whether it was sarcasm or not.

  Try to imagine a cage match of MichaelSol verses the world, over whether or not semi trucks can drive into farmers' fields during harvest- for real.  Bergie had lock that one.

     I think the most disheartening thing about internet forums, is that the majority of the members come to discuss the topic- in out case, trains.  A small minority comes to forums just to play *the game*.

[Lake]

Murphy Siding

    I think the most disheartening thing about internet forums, is that the majority of the members come to discuss the topic- in out case, trains.  A small minority comes to forums just to play *the game*.

 Oh, My I have to agree with this. Happens way to much.

[Steve Sweeney]

Thank you all for coming here and posting your thoughts. 
Ang and I will announce a few clarifications on rules and moderation later this week.

In the meantime, if you have any questions or concerns, don't hesitate to contact either of us.

~Steve