What was the cause of this derailment?
Low speed, four axle switch engine and a cut of cars.
Walk up and on this side,there,s no apparent track damage and all the wheels are on the rail.
On the other side, though, from the point of the cut back, A wheel is on the rail, the next is not, the next is on the rail not derailed but the next is down and so on, one up, one down, one up one down....
This classically indicative of the cause.
Answer tomorrow., Wednesday 18 June.
I assume on a curve ?
Excessive L/V forces with high center of gravity cars. (wind blew over a portable wall)
Randy, Curved or straight track, matters not..
Mudchicken, that may contribute to setting up the cause, but otherwise, no.
The cause takes only two words, but first....
It's eerie but when you see it for the first time, it looks weird, but the second time and third time....the pattern always repeats.... one side of the cut normal....the other side alternate wheels, not trucks, one on the rail one off back to the initial point of derailment.
The last one I experienced I was shoving two units and pulling the head-end double over pick-up for the return trip of a Warm Springs Turn. Before I started the pull, a company carryall stops and a newly appointed Asst. RFE and the District RFE get out and climb aboard. The District RFE had nominated me to be an RFE some years before.....comrades cordially meeting.
Here we go, from the lower yard to the upper to the mainline...plan A. With my head out the cab window, I see the point unit....well, I'll call it wiggle, sort of like shiver, then the the next does also, and I feel the unit I'm running from, carrying the District RFE, the fledgling Asst. RFE, and an ex LA Div RFE, ex ESTC instructor feel it bounce....if you've run an engine, you probably know the sensation from "going on the ground."
I get off and inspect one side....nothing wrong or derailed....Dean and Bob inspect the other side.
I meet them at the point unit and see the characteristic every other wheel pattern on their side.. We mutually express and direct expletives at the gods of the High Iron.
Distr RFE, "It'll do it every time....(expletive) WIDE GAUGE."
That's the answer to the question.
3 RFE's and a derailment occurs....some more expletives utilized among us....
Never saw that on straight track. Curves widen out more than tangent track unless the ties are junk and the ties are center bound with empty cribs .
Randy Stahl Never saw that on straight track. Curves widen out more than tangent track unless the ties are junk and the ties are center bound with empty cribs .
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy Siding Randy Stahl Never saw that on straight track. Curves widen out more than tangent track unless the ties are junk and the ties are center bound with empty cribs . Can you explain that part?
Nothing under the ends of the ties but mud. The track is in gauge until there is a load on it the tie just bends and widens the gauge or simply breaks in the center.
http://www.firehouse.com/news/11505401/train-derailment-near-waynoka-likely-due-to-winds
This link was to a story from earlier this month of a BNSF Derailment in the area of Waynoka, Okla. Due to high winds.
There were stories from incidents on the MKT's former Sedalia, MO line from Parsons, Ks. to St. Louis of the track being in such bad repair, that it was known that standing freight trains would derail in place. The wind would cause the cars to rock, and that action would cause the rails to spread ( Widening the gauge).
I have personally seen strings of standing boxcars derail, blown over by winds ( Not necessarily that high a wind either. The IC RR used to store strings of old boxcars on sidings in the Mississippi Delta ( To be used in the movement of baled Cotton to market; Most looked to be in 'ramshackle condition' ( Doors missing, and rough interiors and exteriors).
De-Horn the RFE. Don't buy the partisan argument. Wide gage caused by excessive lateral (L/V) forces. This clown is just like an old Trainmaster in the LA Basin that could see wide gauge from 60 miles away. Betcha the tapes weren't pulled (so the RFE didn't have to show his lack of competence on the way to TM status) and nobody looked at the chain of events at the POD. Derailment determination investigation is best with open minds and input from all departments.
Very easily could be a combination cause, especially on tangent track. I smell something odd as does Randy.
(Randy would remember the problem with the early stack trains that was always blamed on tie condition/gage until the true culprit showed itself)
I guess it really does depend on which department is on scene first.
The scenario above does sound odd.
I have seen unusual stuff like this on trains that stopped or slowed on elevated curves.
Seen plenty of ice caused derailments. Lots of partially run through switches then reverse direction.
Some harmonic rock stuff. (the event recorder data was useful).
Wide gauge at switches on curves and broken points, worn frogs and typical switch issues.
Wide gauge on low rail on curves from string line.
Wide gauge on high rail from jack knife and of course derailments on really bad track ballasted with mud.
efftenxrfe [snipped & inserted from the Original Post - PDN] . . . Low speed, four axle switch engine and a cut of cars. Walk up and on this side,there,s no apparent track damage and all the wheels are on the rail. On the other side, though, from the point of the cut back, A wheel is on the rail, the next is not, the next is on the rail not derailed but the next is down and so on, one up, one down, one up one down.... I meet them at the point unit and see the characteristic every other wheel pattern on their side.. . . . Distr RFE, "It'll do it every time....(expletive) WIDE GAUGE." . . .
I meet them at the point unit and see the characteristic every other wheel pattern on their side.. . . . Distr RFE, "It'll do it every time....(expletive) WIDE GAUGE." . . .
Usually the leading wheel of each truck spreads or 'rolls' the rail far enough that the trailing wheel falls in too - [EDITED FOR BETTER CLARITY] - it's not usually the trailing wheel that falls in, after the leading wheel has gone by and stayed on the rail. Either way, why would the other wheelset not fall in as well ?
- Paul North.
Randy Stahl I guess it really does depend on which department is on scene first. The scenario above does sound odd. I have seen unusual stuff like this on trains that stopped or slowed on elevated curves. Seen plenty of ice caused derailments. Lots of partially run through switches then reverse direction. Some harmonic rock stuff. (the event recorder data was useful). Wide gauge at switches on curves and broken points, worn frogs and typical switch issues. Wide gauge on low rail on curves from string line. Wide gauge on high rail from jack knife and of course derailments on really bad track ballasted with mud.
And the cause can also be determined at the local watering hole, depending on which department buys the most rounds.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I wouldn't expect anything less from somebody from the operating department, it's always wide gage.
And if the operating guys and the engineering guys are having a beer together its a tight center bowl on a car or a sharp flange that climbed the rail.
Yep - Last one there loses.......(even if the wheel flange is sharp to the touch, the AAR gauge can be made to lie)
Randy, my "makes no difference" remark required the tangent track you describe, as in a decrepid industrial park that found a tenant for a warehouse way back on the leads, unused for years in Alvarado.....straight track: wide guage.
Mudchicken, there were 3 RFE's on the engine. "didn't have to pull the tapes"...."on the way to TM status." This happened when SP stabled, maybe, 20 event recorder equipped units; "1982" there was no tape to pull.
and "on the way to Trainmaster status." What an inglorious fate, an insult,.... to the RFE, similar to demoting Eisenhower to Private.
Mudchicken: eg. a move splits a switch, reversal over the switch results in the car derailing...Do you want input from all departments?....open minded departments? The pattern wide-gauge derailment fits....
Smell something odd... I shouldn't, and won't, get near....
And "the early stack trains," The topmost Chief of engineering, a wilder man than me,led innovation, maintenance, more importantly, design, manufacturing , car acceptance, other tasks, but dissecting for and determining cause, for "Pattern " derailments of the stack cars,...We grew up railfans from 10 yrs old.
TTX.
mudchicken.....saying "true cuiprit" 'I'm guessing says 'conspiracy."
Are you one of those?
mudchicken Yep - Last one there loses.......
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