Sort of doubt it. WP was not a big money maker, and the Rock was in and out of financial stress most of it's life. CB&Q traffic to the Moffet line and MP traffic to the Tennessee pass line were the big drivers of the Rio Grande Acing them out of that traffic to the east may have made them route their trains to the UP.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
MP would have been paired with WP/DRGW under the flawed Ripley/Prince Plan. CRIP would have been matched up with Frisco. Barriger had concerns about the eastern CRIP spiderweb IIRC. (bears out JRB's comment)
It's an interesting "alternate history" idea that would make a great theme for a "proto-freelanced" model railroad...
Could be an outgrowth of the real life proposed merger of the C&NW, Milwaukee Road, and Rock Island (though that scheme involved selling everything south of Kansas City to ATSF)..
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
The Rio Grande was the only one of the three with the wherewithal to initiate such a merger, and they were rather conservative. They survived on originating traffic and a share of Q/ BN grain bridge traffic (that is why you saw DRGW PS1 hoppers when the Rio Grande had no grain in their area, it was price of being in a pool with WP and BN). The Rock Island actually used Denver North Yard as their terminal, connecting to their UP/KP trackagae rights on the Rock Island "Belt Line" which ran EW just north of I-70 between North Yard and the UP near Monoco, there still was a Rock Island neon sign on the side of the yard tower in the eighties. My uncle was a brakeman on the Rio Grande and I recall him talking about what junk the Rock Island's units were. Rio Grande bought the Belt Line between North Yard and the UP Cheyenne line after the Rock Island failed (most of the rest is a short line, Denver Rock Island) and considered buying the line across Kansas to Omaha and Kansas City. But that track was awful, even the RI hotshot parts train avoided it, running on the UP from Omaha,t o Salt Lake, short hauling themselves. The merger you mention might have made sense if the Rock Island hadn't let themselves go to attract a merger partner.
carnej1 It's an interesting "alternate history" idea that would make a great theme for a "proto-freelanced" model railroad... Could be an outgrowth of the real life proposed merger of the C&NW, Milwaukee Road, and Rock Island (though that scheme involved selling everything south of Kansas City to ATSF)..
Man, am I getting rusty; I can't recall that proposed linkup. But what did ATSF need with the Rock south of Kansas City? (It was SP who needed and ended up with that.)
I
dakotafred carnej1 It's an interesting "alternate history" idea that would make a great theme for a "proto-freelanced" model railroad... Could be an outgrowth of the real life proposed merger of the C&NW, Milwaukee Road, and Rock Island (though that scheme involved selling everything south of Kansas City to ATSF).. Man, am I getting rusty; I can't recall that proposed linkup. But what did ATSF need with the Rock south of Kansas City? (It was SP who needed and ended up with that.)
It would have given them a line between Amarillo and Memphis, and between Kansas City and St. Louis, which they craved and had been denied (being blocked from merging with the Frisco, etc).
DwightBranch The Rio Grande was the only one of the three with the wherewithal to initiate such a merger, and they were rather conservative. They survived on originating traffic and a share of Q/ BN grain bridge traffic (that is why you saw DRGW PS1 hoppers when the Rio Grande had no grain in their area, it was price of being in a pool with WP and BN). The Rock Island actually used Denver North Yard as their terminal, connecting to their UP/KP trackagae rights on the Rock Island "Belt Line" which ran EW just north of I-70 between North Yard and the UP near Monoco, there still was a Rock Island neon sign on the side of the yard tower in the eighties. My uncle was a brakeman on the Rio Grande and I recall him talking about what junk the Rock Island's units were. Rio Grande bought the Belt Line between North Yard and the UP Cheyenne line after the Rock Island failed (most of the rest is a short line, Denver Rock Island) and considered buying the line across Kansas to Omaha and Kansas City. But that track was awful, even the RI hotshot parts train avoided it, running on the UP from Omaha,t o Salt Lake, short hauling themselves. The merger you mention might have made sense if the Rock Island hadn't let themselves go to attract a merger partner.
BellevilleKS -Limon CO was good railroad, poorly maintained.
mudchicken (1) Not the Cheyenne line (Denver Pacific); try the Kansas Pacific Line at Sandown (in from Limon); No, the DRGW only bought over to near Vazquez where the UP ran north. Thebelt line east of there went to DRI, whichwas physically disconnected from the UP Kansas Pacific line when I worked near the end point around 2004 when I was a student. I spent a lot of time there waiting for my truck to be loaded (an aluminum supplier, big thousand pound blocks I took to a company in Wheat Ridge, I can't recall the name, they were on the right of way). The right of way was still there and the I-70 bridge was still there, but the track ended just before passing under I-70, about 1k ft. from the connection to the KP, and a pile of ties was on the end right under the bridge. DRI only used it when switching a small scrap yard near there. A grade crossing would need to be put back in by that hotel next to the UP/KP (Hilton?) but it would make a lot of sense for the UP to do that. (2) Don't look now, but UP has an operating easement from Sandown to Belt Jcn. (in exchange, DRIR got UP's stockyards lead and N. Washington Industrial Park); That would make sense as a shortcut to North Yard. (3) NorthWest Terminal RR (NWT) was built by D&SL (absorbed in the 1947 consolidation) and later phased out by DRGW/SP... BellevilleKS -Limon CO was good railroad, poorly maintained. I walked it around 1979 as a child, it looked a lot like that Maumee and Western that is a hit on the internet for the roller-coaster track
(1) Not the Cheyenne line (Denver Pacific); try the Kansas Pacific Line at Sandown (in from Limon);
No, the DRGW only bought over to near Vazquez where the UP ran north. Thebelt line east of there went to DRI, whichwas physically disconnected from the UP Kansas Pacific line when I worked near the end point around 2004 when I was a student. I spent a lot of time there waiting for my truck to be loaded (an aluminum supplier, big thousand pound blocks I took to a company in Wheat Ridge, I can't recall the name, they were on the right of way). The right of way was still there and the I-70 bridge was still there, but the track ended just before passing under I-70, about 1k ft. from the connection to the KP, and a pile of ties was on the end right under the bridge. DRI only used it when switching a small scrap yard near there. A grade crossing would need to be put back in by that hotel next to the UP/KP (Hilton?) but it would make a lot of sense for the UP to do that.
(2) Don't look now, but UP has an operating easement from Sandown to Belt Jcn. (in exchange, DRIR got UP's stockyards lead and N. Washington Industrial Park);
That would make sense as a shortcut to North Yard.
(3) NorthWest Terminal RR (NWT) was built by D&SL (absorbed in the 1947 consolidation) and later phased out by DRGW/SP...
I walked it around 1979 as a child, it looked a lot like that Maumee and Western that is a hit on the internet for the roller-coaster track
In the late 1960s the RI had for a short time a Ford train from St. Louis to Denver. It didn't last too long because of deteriorating track conditions.
Jeff
It would have been interesting to see a RI+DRGW+WP if they could have worked some sort of haulage agreement with CB&Q Denver-Omaha. East of Omaha the RI was in better shape, and the old CB&Q line was busy with coal trains anyway. Anything would have been better than a virtual monopoly in the central corridor (UP).
MidlandMike It would have been interesting to see a RI+DRGW+WP if they could have worked some sort of haulage agreement with CB&Q Denver-Omaha. East of Omaha the RI was in better shape, and the old CB&Q line was busy with coal trains anyway. Anything would have been better than a virtual monopoly in the central corridor (UP).
I don't know, Mike; UP obviously had to get to Chicago, and in fact was the last of the transcons to do so. It's shocking that it took them so long. They could have really lost out.
"Monopoly" is a consideration only if you discount the former CB&Q line and the road by which the majority of Omaha-Chicago freight traffic moves to this day, which is I-80.
jeffhergert In the late 1960s the RI had for a short time a Ford train from St. Louis to Denver. It didn't last too long because of deteriorating track conditions. Jeff
Interesting, I'm not sure if it was there then but there is a big car unloading area right about where the RI went into the DRGW North Yard, I'll bet that was the destination. I saw the RI across Missouri in 1979 or so, my parents went to the Ozarks every summer, it was not only in rough shape, but very curvy. One of the regulars here posted something a while back about being part of a group trying to buy it (it is still there after 35 years without trains). He said that the Rock Island had derailments toward the end and just left the cars there and built a shoo-fly around it, and that some of them were still sitting there. Can you imagine a shipper: where is my car?
dakotafred MidlandMike It would have been interesting to see a RI+DRGW+WP if they could have worked some sort of haulage agreement with CB&Q Denver-Omaha. East of Omaha the RI was in better shape, and the old CB&Q line was busy with coal trains anyway. Anything would have been better than a virtual monopoly in the central corridor (UP). I don't know, Mike; UP obviously had to get to Chicago, and in fact was the last of the transcons to do so. It's shocking that it took them so long. They could have really lost out. "Monopoly" is a consideration only if you discount the former CB&Q line and the road by which the majority of Omaha-Chicago freight traffic moves to this day, which is I-80.
While the UP once looked at RI as a Chicago link, they finally chose C&NW.
BNSF's former CB&Q line to Denver only crosses half the central corridor. Although they have trackage rights to cross the rest of the corridor, they seem to have a very minor presence there. When DRGW was independant they had an alternative soda ash loading facility (Green River?) which competed with UP. Although they were not a big player in that trade, it made the UP price that commodity competitively. Once UP got the Grande, the commodity became captive again. I qualified my original statement by saying virtual monopoly. By context, the inference was we were talking about rail.
...now it's BNSF Parachute (not Green River)....Roper-Denver turns still busy in there.
The Moffat line might not have happened had there not been a friendly CB&Q. (Gore Canyon war)...And DRGW might be very different if CB&Q had built into western Colorado. Their surveyors were there 2-4 years ahead of the D&RG guys. (first into Aspen and Glenwood Canyon, although they never built after a financial panic left them vulnerable)
"Over by Vasquez" turns out to be either UP Junction (3.10, where the connection to the NB UP Greeley sub is) or UP Transfer (4.06). Both are either original NWT(EDBL)/D&SL/DRGW or original UP. CRIP never owned either or had rights to either. (Belt, MP 2.76 is where CRIP connected to the NWT circa February 1951 in conjunction with the 1948 North Yard construction/ reconfiguration.
The east Denver Belt Line was built by North Western Terminal RR (by DNWP/D&SL forces) in 1912-13. The only piece of NWP built by others west of UP-Conn to Belt was part of the wye connection at Utah Junction (Original DL&NW built in 1909 that died circa 1922, but was another victim of USRA traffic manipulation in the first World War, similar to Colorado Midland..) Add -in the D&I/C&S squirrels nest of interurban tracks in there (Utah Jcn-/Modern-Globeville) and you have corned-fusion.
Trying to go east from UP Jcn to Pullman (on the DP "Greeley Sub) to east on the KP towards Limon is an ugly move with a long train. (Knuckle buster and operational mechanical nightmare, thus UP acquiring the old CRIP Belt Line operating easement from DRIR/COE)
MidlandMike dakotafred MidlandMike It would have been interesting to see a RI+DRGW+WP if they could have worked some sort of haulage agreement with CB&Q Denver-Omaha. East of Omaha the RI was in better shape, and the old CB&Q line was busy with coal trains anyway. Anything would have been better than a virtual monopoly in the central corridor (UP). I don't know, Mike; UP obviously had to get to Chicago, and in fact was the last of the transcons to do so. It's shocking that it took them so long. They could have really lost out. "Monopoly" is a consideration only if you discount the former CB&Q line and the road by which the majority of Omaha-Chicago freight traffic moves to this day, which is I-80. While the UP once looked at RI as a Chicago link, they finally chose C&NW. BNSF's former CB&Q line to Denver only crosses half the central corridor. Although they have trackage rights to cross the rest of the corridor, they seem to have a very minor presence there. When DRGW was independant they had an alternative soda ash loading facility (Green River?) which competed with UP. Although they were not a big player in that trade, it made the UP price that commodity competitively. Once UP got the Grande, the commodity became captive again. I qualified my original statement by saying virtual monopoly. By context, the inference was we were talking about rail.
Sorry, Mike; I thought we were talking Omaha-Chicago, not transcon.
mudchicken ...now it's BNSF Parachute (not Green River)....Roper-Denver turns still busy in there. The Moffat line might not have happened had there not been a friendly CB&Q. (Gore Canyon war)...And DRGW might be very different if CB&Q had built into western Colorado. Their surveyors were there 2-4 years ahead of the D&RG guys. (first into Aspen and Glenwood Canyon, although they never built after a financial panic left them vulnerable) "Over by Vasquez" turns out to be either UP Junction (3.10, where the connection to the NB UP Greeley sub is) or UP Transfer (4.06). Both are either original NWT(EDBL)/D&SL/DRGW or original UP. CRIP never owned either or had rights to either. (Belt, MP 2.76 is where CRIP connected to the NWT circa February 1951 in conjunction with the 1948 North Yard construction/ reconfiguration. The east Denver Belt Line was built by North Western Terminal RR (by DNWP/D&SL forces) in 1912-13. The only piece of NWP built by others west of UP-Conn to Belt was part of the wye connection at Utah Junction (Original DL&NW built in 1909 that died circa 1922, but was another victim of USRA traffic manipulation in the first World War, similar to Colorado Midland..) Add -in the D&I/C&S squirrels nest of interurban tracks in there (Utah Jcn-/Modern-Globeville) and you have corned-fusion. Trying to go east from UP Jcn to Pullman (on the DP "Greeley Sub) to east on the KP towards Limon is an ugly move with a long train. (Knuckle buster and operational mechanical nightmare, thus UP acquiring the old CRIP Belt Line operating easement from DRIR/COE)
I can't remember the details anymore, I do know that RI parked their engines in DRGW's North Yard, it may be that the west end was DRGW owned all along. The Rio Grande bought some of the RI Belt and leased all the rest for a time until the DRI took it over, I have an old DRGW Adlake switch lock I found in the mud near a derail near Holly on what became DRI. That area is probably rough to navigate by rail, I know the grade crossings are a mess, I had run trucks through there that didn't have power steering, I would take both hands off the wheel becasue it would break your wrist if you didn't, a guy I worked with had that happen. Later a switchman was killed by a truck running into his train, I was very sorry, I had earlier talked to the guy who was killed. But west of there it loops onto a barren area around the UPS terminal, with enough money Union Pacific could make it work I'll bet, and Aurora and Denver would likely be happy to have the train running though an industrial area rather than downtown.
mudchickenThe Moffat line might not have happened had there not been a friendly CB&Q. (Gore Canyon war)...And DRGW might be very different if CB&Q had built into western Colorado. Their surveyors were there 2-4 years ahead of the D&RG guys. (first into Aspen and Glenwood Canyon, although they never built after a financial panic left them vulnerable)
I meant to comment on this, the excellent Bollinger/Bauer The Moffat Road book (I have one ten feet from me now) talks a lot about the importance of the Burlington, what at that time was the Burlington and Missouri River Railroad. The importance of that connection historically may be why the DRGW wouldn't consider a Rock Island purchase, even decades later when the connection had declined with the BN merger. My great grandfather helped build the Moffat Tunnel (my grandmother grew up in East Portal), and my grandfather was a fireman for the Rio Grande during the 40's, until my grandmother talked him into getting off the extra board, they later lived in Pinecliffe overlooking the railroad, where my parents live now.
The DRGW did eventually reach Kansas City by rights over the exMP, a condition of the UP-MP-WP acquisition IIRC. I'm thinking the price and then money needed for upgrading the RI was the big reason the DRGW passed it up.
From what I've seen about the Ford train, it was traffic that went to the DRGW. Not just for delivery to local Denver points.
jeffhergert The DRGW did eventually reach Kansas City by rights over the exMP, a condition of the UP-MP-WP acquisition IIRC. I'm thinking the price and then money needed for upgrading the RI was the big reason the DRGW passed it up. From what I've seen about the Ford train, it was traffic that went to the DRGW. Not just for delivery to local Denver points. Jeff
The Rock Island was a better route, it followed river valleys and had large grain shippers, the MP was the last built and ran up and over ridges, and there isn't as much grain (or other business) in southern Kansas. If the Rio Grande had been able to look into a crystal ball and see the future I'll bet they would have bought the RI line, it would have been cheaper than maintaining the ex-MP Hosington district themselves (UP told them toward the end that they would perform any maintenance the SP would pay for, and since Moyers didn't want to pay for any it didn't get any, it was as bad as the Rock Island toward the end). But also in 1980 Rio Grande couldn't have predicted that the UP/MP/WP merger would wreck a good chunk of their bridge traffic. That Ford traffic probably bypassed them completely after the merger, going through Wyoming instead.
I read in a Trains article that the Rio Grande was looking to cut operating costs, and rerouted some trains off the Tennessee Pass line to the Moffat, thence via the Joint Line to Pueblo. They found out that the Joint line was too congested to absorb the extra traffic. In light of the UP/MP/WP merger, I wonder why they asked for trackage rights on the MP via Pueblo, rather than on the KP direct from Denver to KC, as what eventually happened after UP absorbed the Grande.
Possibly because they did not think that they could get it!
The KP was almost abandoned and the signal system was being removed at the time with 40 mph TWC.
Going back to the WP+DRG&W+RI question, the basic point is what year(s) are you asking about? Don't forget that a D&RGW + Colorade Midland + RI (sort of) came close to happening in the 1890's. We would then have to wait to see if the WP was ever built if that happened.
If mergers were happening in the 20's a WP+DRG&W+RI might have happened then. The late 50's would have been another interesting time to try a merger while it was still possible.
Unfortunately, by 1980 was there even a RI left to merge with?
MidlandMike I read in a Trains article that the Rio Grande was looking to cut operating costs, and rerouted some trains off the Tennessee Pass line to the Moffat, thence via the Joint Line to Pueblo. They found out that the Joint line was too congested to absorb the extra traffic. In light of the UP/MP/WP merger, I wonder why they asked for trackage rights on the MP via Pueblo, rather than on the KP direct from Denver to KC, as what eventually happened after UP absorbed the Grande.
Another issue is that the Moffat Tunnel is too low to accept double stack and tri-level autorack cars, while the Tennessee pass line is cleared for both. The Moffat Tunnel roof is reinforced with steel bars and concrete and would be close to impossible to improve clearances while the track is in use, it would need to be taken out of service for a year or so and the floor undercut, and the thing is close to seven miles long as I recall. Also, it takes half an hour to blow it out so another train can pass, that means a maximum of around 20 trains per day on that line, while the Tennessee Pass tunnel is only about a mile long. UP rerouted most of the manifest and all the double stack traffic off of the DRGW when they closed Tennessee Pass and ran it through Wyoming. Anshutz wanted to sell the Minturn Yard and main track to Vail Associates for ski slopes and water rights shortly after he merged with UP but was blocked by the state.
I knew that the Moffat Tunnel was to low for double stacks, but I recall seeing autoracks on the line in the UP era. KC-SFO double stack would not be competitive with BNSF. At any rate, DRGW did not see the issues you brought up as a deal beaker for getting off Tennessee Pass.
"The Rock Island went everywhere the Burlington did, only longer."
Was merger between the D. R. G. & W. and the Burlington ever considered?
Yes, the RG and the WP connected in Salt lake City, with passenger trains running through over the two roads, and the WP used Roper Yard.
Johnny
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