One of the best places in Texas to watch trains is Alpine. It is in far west Texas. In addition, it is a crew change point for the UP and Amtrak. Many of the crew members, while waiting for their train, are willing to talk with rail fans about what they do.
Eastbound the UP crews take the train as far as Del Rio, which is 217 rail miles from Alpine. This weekend, while I was in Alpine, I asked one of the UP engineers, who was waiting for a stack train, how long it would take to get to Del Rio. He said five to six hours if there was not too much traffic. But sometimes, he said, it can take 12 hours, which raises a question.
Lets supposed the train is 10 miles from Del Rio when the 12 hour on-duty time limit expires. Can the crew get an exception to exceed the 12 hour limit and take the train into Del Rio, or does the railroad need to bring out another crew?
Unless there is a critical emergency, the railroad needs to bring out another crew if the train is to move, whether it is 10 miles away or even a mere one mile away. If a relief crew is not immediately available, the old crew will have to stop well before the 12 hours is up to allow for the time spent cutting crossings and otherwise securing their train.
John
I once chatted with a crew at Milan, MI who had died on the law. 30 miles to get to Detroit, and they couldn't move. Had to wait for a "dog-catch" crew to take the train.
Norm
If a crew voluntarily violates the federal hours of service law, they can be fined. Railroads which coerce a crew to violate can also be subject to federal penalty. In 36 years I have only been instructed one time to bring a train in, exceeding the HOS. That was during a blizzard which had paralyzed highway travel and there was no way to get relief crews out to hog lawed trains. We were asked by the dispatcher if we felt we could safely bring the train to the relief point (107 miles). Not wanting to camp out on the engine, we readily agreed to proceed.
I understand that during the second world war, crews frequently received orders to violate, in order to keep the railroads fluid.
cx500 Unless there is a critical emergency, the railroad needs to bring out another crew if the train is to move, whether it is 10 miles away or even a mere one mile away. If a relief crew is not immediately available, the old crew will have to stop well before the 12 hours is up to allow for the time spent cutting crossings and otherwise securing their train.
Seems like I recall someone here telling about the time they heard a crew report that they were all tied down, even though you could clearly hear the horn in the background as they blew for a grade crossing...
We aren't usually faced with that sort of problem, with only 60 miles of contiguous track in the first place. Every now and then, though, with multiple trips, we'll end up with a crew that comes really close.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
I have mentioned this before, but it still may be of interest.
Twenty-four years ago, my wife and I rode with outlawed crews in Oregon. We were going from Los Angeles to Seattle, and all went well until we pulled out of Klamath Falls. We stopped by the lake, and after a while we backed back to the station--a freight had derailed one of the Cascade tunnels, and unless arrangements could be made to detour us up the Oregon Trunk (no such arrangement was made) we would be delayed until the freight was back on the track.
After some time (I do not remember how long), we began moving east, stopping here and there as the SP directed us. Our last stop was "in the middle of nowhere," and we stayed there until dinner time. As my wife and I were eating, the conductor came through the diner, and I asked him if the crews were going to be outlawed. He told me that they were already outlawed; there was no way to get relief until we met the westbound train, and that permission had been granted in Washington for us to proceed.
As it was, we arrived in Seattle ten hours late. Had we been held at the point that the crews ran out of time, we may have been another four hours late.
First class passengers did not have to pay for their dinner that evening; coach passengers did. The steward had to buy food at Chemult so he would be able to serve a good dinner.
Johnny
Here is a somewhat related question. On Saturday afternoon, whilst visiting the Alpine, TX Amtrak Station, I met a retired UP conductor and his wife. They were cleaning the waiting room. They are volunteers. The Alpine station is not staffed. If they did not volunteer to keep it clean, I suspect it would be a mess.
I asked the conductor why he had never been an engineer. He said that he was not interested. He also said that he had worked for the railroad for 42 years.
Which is the better paying position: conductor or engineer? Also, who is the boss on the train?
Define "better paying". Is it the hourly rate? Is it the job rate (i.e., different job's total pay differed by assignment). Both could be working at the same hourly rate but the assignments could offer more total pay. And, of course, this differed from railroad to railroad, union contract to union contract, and assignment to assignment. So even a lower hourly pay rate with a longer assignment could earn more pay. If I were to contradict myself with a wild guess, I would say that in earlier days the engineers and firemen might draw more if only because of the more strenuous and constant work but the difference would be small.
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henry6 Define "better paying". Is it the hourly rate? Is it the job rate (i.e., different job's total pay differed by assignment). Both could be working at the same hourly rate but the assignments could offer more total pay. And, of course, this differed from railroad to railroad, union contract to union contract, and assignment to assignment. So even a lower hourly pay rate with a longer assignment could earn more pay. If I were to contradict myself with a wild guess, I would say that in earlier days the engineers and firemen might draw more if only because of the more strenuous and constant work but the difference would be small.
Total compensation package.
Then my answer stands on a day by day, job by job, assignment by assignment basis.
'
Remember, too, that conductor and engineer were two different career paths.
Nowadays, there's just one path.
Sam1 Here is a somewhat related question. On Saturday afternoon, whilst visiting the Alpine, TX Amtrak Station, I met a retired UP conductor and his wife. They were cleaning the waiting room. They are volunteers. The Alpine station is not staffed. If they did not volunteer to keep it clean, I suspect it would be a mess. I asked the conductor why he had never been an engineer. He said that he was not interested. He also said that he had worked for the railroad for 42 years. Which is the better paying position: conductor or engineer? Also, who is the boss on the train?
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Semper Vaporo Sam1 Here is a somewhat related question. On Saturday afternoon, whilst visiting the Alpine, TX Amtrak Station, I met a retired UP conductor and his wife. They were cleaning the waiting room. They are volunteers. The Alpine station is not staffed. If they did not volunteer to keep it clean, I suspect it would be a mess. I asked the conductor why he had never been an engineer. He said that he was not interested. He also said that he had worked for the railroad for 42 years. Which is the better paying position: conductor or engineer? Also, who is the boss on the train? I read somewhere that the "boss of the train" was determined early on, on a southern RR (I don't remember which one) where the Conductor wanted to do one thing and the Engineer wanted to do something different. They got off the engine and duked it out (I doubt if the Marquee of Queensbury rules were enforced) and the Conductor "won". This set the precedent that the Conductor is in charge of the Train, but the Engineer is in charge of the Engine. The Conductor can tell the Engineer what to do with the Train, but cannot take control of the Engine itself.
The Engineer moves the engine backward and forward at the direction of the conductor (or brakemen/switchmen that report to the conductor). The conductor is responsible for the documentation of the loading of the train and making the proper set off and pick ups on road trains and switching yard cuts in accordance with the documented switch list. The Engineer moves the engine backward and forward at the direction of the Conductor.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
While traveling over the road, the conductor is equally responsible for complying with signals, limits of authority, form B (work zones) ,speed compliance, etc. The conductor's side is equipped with an engineer override lever. It's called an Emergency Brake Valve. I can't recall hearing a conductor use it because of the engineer's train handling, but I know it's use has been threatened on occasion. (So far, know one has threatened to use it on me. I've only threatened to use it once and that was on a student engineer.)
Everything being equal, the engineer's pay rate on a given job will be slightly more than the conductor's. On my portion of the world, there are two pay rates depending when you hired out. Guys who hired out when it was CNW still get the CNW rate of pay. Those who hired out after it was UP are under the UP rate, which is less than the CNW rate. (I could've had a 1995 CNW date, but have a 1998 UP date. It's a long story in itself. Only a few know it and one who knows it once told me, when I was still a conductor, that the difference between the two rates was about $800 a month.) Now while the specific job rate is lower for UP hire outs, they figure the guarantees on the boards that have them at CNW rate. Almost all our trainmen's boards have guarantees (The highest guarantee board in my terminal is the switchman's extra board, because they have to be footboard yardmaster qualified.) The only engineer's board that has one is the extra board, the road pools don't.
Jeff
The conductor and the engineer are responsible for the safety and protection of their train and observance
of the rules. If any conditions are not covered by the rules, they must take every precaution for protection.
A. Conductor Responsibilities
1. The conductor supervises the operation and administration of the train (if trains are combined with more
than one conductor on board, the conductor with the most seniority takes charge). All persons employed on
the train must obey the conductor's instructions, unless the instructions endanger the train's safety or violate
the rules. If any doubts arise concerning the authority for proceeding or safety, the conductor must consult
with the engineer who will be equally responsible for the safety and proper handling of the train.
2. The conductor must advise the engineer and train dispatcher of any restriction placed on equipment
being handled.
3. When the conductor is not present, other crewmembers must obey the instructions of the engineer
concerning rules, safety, and protection of the train.
4. Freight conductors are responsible for the freight carried by their train. They are also responsible for
ensuring that the freight is delivered with any accompanying documents to its destination or terminals.
Freight conductors must maintain any required records.
B. Engineer Responsibilities
1. The engineer is responsible for safely and efficiently operating the engine. Crewmembers must obey the
engineer's instructions that concern operating the engine. A student engineer or other qualified employee
may operate the engine under close supervision of the engineer. Any employee that operates an engine
must have a current certificate in his possession.
2. The engineer must check with the conductor to determine if any cars or units in the train require special
handling.
C. Conductors and engineers must ensure that their subordinates are familiar with their duties, determine
the extent of their experience and knowledge of the rules, and instruct them, when necessary, how to
perform their work properly and safely.
D. Other Crew Members Responsibility
1. To ensure the train is operated safely and rules are observed, other crewmembers must assume as much
responsibility as possible to prevent accidents or rule violations.
2. When the conductor or engineer fails to stop the train, or emergency requires, other crewmembers must
stop the train immediately
The above is from the current GCOR and clearly spells out the duties of each.
By national contract, engineers do earn more on an hourly basis.
On most roads, promotion to engineer from conductor is mandatory, but on my road, a Class 3, it is not, so by staying a ground pounder, I have managed to go from 234 from the top slot to number 18 in fifteen years...I pretty much can hold any conductors job I choose.
Note there are joint responsibilities for both the conductor and engineer, they are a team, even if they can't stand each other, most of the time they will work professionaly together.
23 17 46 11
Before today conductors rode and worked in passenger cars or cabooses and the engineer was in the cab of a locomotive with and later without a fireman; on freight trains there was often a head brakeman. Today, there is a conductor and engineer and maybe a second conductor or brakeman in the cab of the locomotive except on passenger trains where the engineer is alone in the cab and the conductor, brakemen, assistant conductors and/or ticket collectors riding and working in the passenger cars; there are virtually no cabooses for freight crews. If the conductor and the engineer don't get along, the conductor has to ride in another cab or hang on to the side of a container.
EDBLYSARD,
I can always count on you for a clear, precise, and cogent answer. I appreciate your thoughtfulness. Equally important, it is great to hear from a person who is working railroader and knows how railroads really run.
Don't know where to start, but I do know where, when and why to stop after expiration of authorized hours-of-service or as it was termed in Texas as "hoggin'out" or as we termed it west of there "dying on the law." Of course in Texas, "dog catchers" would be called to recrew, while we, west of there, welcomed "patch crews."
Digression terminated; Where? If it was apparent you couldn't get to the terminal, was tell the dispatcher at least 2 hours before demise...his advice or instructions, orders or directives ruled. An engine failure, unrailment, track failure discovery, changed things but didn't alter the circumstances requiring trip termination.
When was easy unless you"dropped your watch." Sixteen hours from going on duty after "full rest" which was register (book, like a timecard) to register.
Was it 2 years at 14 hours, then a drop to 12 hours?
"Why" required an "An Act of God;"
Which required at the place and from reports whether humans could in their most efficient imaginations have foreseen the causal factor or factors?
If, it wasn't "an act of God"....what is this about?
A human could not anticipate the act(ion)
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Sam,
To answer your original question, there is one and only one exception to the hours of service law; I will explain it in a bit.
In essence, taking away the legalese and contract double talk, what the hours of service laws means is that, precisely 12 hours after coming on duty, a T&E employee may not perform any service for the carrier.
None, not one bit, nothing even as simple as making a phone call or radio transmission to the dispatcher, we can’t even tie up in the computer system once we get back, we have to enter our time at the beginning of our next duty shift or call.
Nothing that can be construed as “service for or to the carrier” is allowed…you can’t secure the train, tie hand brakes, move the train, line a switch, nothing but sit and wait.
It is the conductor’s responsibility to notify the dispatcher or control operator or the designated person in charge if train will not makes its final destination or complete its work within the time frame, most carriers state in their timetables the need for a two hour notification, although this is something that varies carrier to carrier, the law itself is vague on the notification time, it simply states a “sufficient amount of time”.
Since the dispatcher is the front line person in the chain of command so to speak, every one of them I have dealt with has a list of crews/train under their control with a notation of when that trains hour of service expires, and if they know they will not be able to yard the train somewhere or tuck it in a siding, they will make arraignments for a crew swap “on the fly” before the time expires at a predetermined location, often something as easy as having a new crew waiting at a given road crossing.
As for the exception, Acts of God are rarely accepted by the FRA, their reasoning is that, short of a flash flood actually washing the rails out from under a train, or a trestle in the process of collapsing under you, the railroad should have planned for any contingency, as in the case of say, a hurricane.
The legal exception is when leaving the train where it is would present a “clear and present or ongoing danger to the general public”, which of course, is a fairly vague statement in itself.
They fail to define “clear and present or ongoing danger” in any manner, leaving that up to the carrier.
So, if leaving a train where it blocks public crossings, so be it.
If the conductor sees an emergency vehicle at a crossing with its light flashing, then that would present a “clear and present danger”. Same as blocking the only entrance to a hospital.
Of course, the FRA will again point out that the railroad should have known where its train was and when its crew would expire, and make plans to prevent the train from stopping in such a place or location as to present these dangers.
A crew reaching their hours of service by accident is almost unknown, for the most part, it is a planned event, in essence moving the train as far as possible with one crew, and having a new crew either waiting at a predetermined point or in route and in motion to relieve the expired crew.
Violation of the hours of service will result in the carrier being fined, and the crew that violates the law is also subject to fines.
All that said, crews will leave themselves enough time so that when they are going to hit the hours of service, or “hog out”, they stop the train within a time frame that allows them to properly secure the train.
The exception to that is when the crew knows there is a relief crew on the way, they may simply bring the train to a halt and wait.
The FRA will allow the crew to babysit the train, as long as the engineer remains inside the controlling cab, the FRA considers the train to be under his control.
When the new crew shows up, the outlawed engineer will only leave the cab once the new engineer is aboard and in the cab.
If the crew is going to call a taxi and leave the train unattended, then the proper securement procedures must be followed, and the crew will leave themselves time to do so.
I questioned out local FRA field investigator about that….I asked him that, if the engineer was considered to be “in control of the train” wouldn’t that constitute providing service to the carrier?
I was politely ignored!
So, to answer both parts of your question :No to the first part and yes to the second.
edblysardNone, not one bit, nothing even as simple as making a phone call or radio transmission to the dispatcher, we can’t even tie up in the computer system once we get back, we have to enter our time at the beginning of our next duty shift or call.
While the odds of us "hogging out" are pretty small, in accounting for our time we have been advised to watch for "co-mingled service." The example we use is if our trainmaster spends an hour working on next month's schedule, then goes on duty as engineer, he's already got one hour "used up."
I would presume that would probably include things like cleaning the train before and after actual train operations, but I haven't had a chance to question an FRA rep about it. It does confuse me, though, as even though I'm on railroad equipment while I'm washing windows, in actuality, it's little different than washing the windows at my house - which wouldn't count. Likewise, if I sat down at my computer for an hour before going on duty and worked on a fire department project, that wouldn't count, either...
I started my railroad career on "dark" railroad back in the 70's. At that time I was told that the HOS law did not relieve one from providing flag protection for a train tied up on the main. This only makes sense, as the train still represents a clear and present danger for other trains operating on the subdivision. Of course, as has been previously pointed out, crews should always endeavor to tie up in the clear, but sometimes fate intervenes. A knuckle or drawhead, a derailment or washout can foul the best made plans.
Currently, as Edblysard has pointed out, we can not even complete a time ticket while on the law. Strangely enough, we are still required to fill out a "hog law" ticket. The difference between this and a regular ticket is probably 30 key strokes! I'm sure that somewhere someone died doing those 30 keystrokes, hence the rule. FRA rules were written in blood, you know!
When on a "quick tie-up" we have the option to enter pay information, although that part of the process is more streamlined than a normal tie-up. Some details have to be entered later when closing out the tie-up. About the biggest difference between the regular and quick tie-up is when dead on the HOS, we can't do the FRA certification portion. The computer system we use also will kick us out of the regular tie up about 3 minutes before you're actually dead on the law. Every once in a while I'll be almost done with the regular tie up and the system will throw me out, giving me the quick tie-up screen. Then I have to re-enter all the pay information again and then finish the FRA portion the next time I go to work. Most of the times that has happened, I could've finished the normal tie-up before my 12 hrs expired.
Yup,
But we don't see the BIGGER picture, so....
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