Why?

[Mookie]

I know this is really simple, but:

I am the engineer on a train, coming into a reasonably large city. How do I know when to set the air and start slowing down?

AND

What do you use your watch for, now that everything is so computerized? And why is it still so important that it be "registered" as on time?

Mz Moo

[tree68]

I think I can answer the first one - it's the same reason you slow down driving your car into a built-up area - speed limits and you know the territory.

As for the second - IMHO it's just to provide middle management something to carp at the worker bees about if they don't make it...

[Mookie]

But since trains run on no particular schedule, what's to make?

[tree68]

Methinks it goes back to the "plans" that were discussed elsewhere - there may not be a "schedule," but if things don't go according to the "plan," well, watch out! Heads will roll...

Mark H has made several references to morning conference calls. He'll certainly be able to expand on the concept...

[zardoz]

Mz Moo-
Each Engineer will have their own "spots" (reference points) that they use to determine when to set the air or start dynamic braking for any type of speed reduction. The spot will, of course, vary depanding on the type of train (unit - loaded or empty; manifest - length, weight, load distribution; weather - temperature, snow; etc). Some will use distance from restriction (i.e.-set air 1.5 miles before slow order so as to reduce train speed from 50mph to 30). And I suppose some just guess. Experience is usually the best teacher.

The watch is still quite neccessary. The trains that are dispatched in TWC (Track Warrant Control) or DTC (Direct Traffic Control) use over-the-radio permissions to enter track blocks, and those orders are not considered valid until repeated back to the dispatcher, at which time the dispatcher gives the crew an "OK" time, which validates the order. Similarly, when a crew releases it's authority in a section of track, they must give the dispatcher the time the block is released; without a time, the dispatcher cannot authorize the release.


Back to braking. Freight trains, due to their complexity and variability, must each be handled differently, as braking distances will vary greatly between trains. But consider suburban passenger trains. Due to the extremely tight schedules, the trains must be run as fast as possible. Consequently, braking distances must be as short as possible--can't be drifting into stations. So the trains are "run in" as closely as possible to the station before braking is initiated. The only thing that makes this doable is the fact that passenger engine and train brakes have a graduated release feature built in to them, so some adjustment is possible.

To do this requires rather different types of spots to begin braking. Sometimes we use such diverse objects as a blue garage, a pine tree, a driveway past the drug store, etc. Makes for some interesting operations when the fog is so thick you cannot see the rail in front of the engine due to headlight glare off the fog. Set the brakes too late, and you blow the station, requiring all sorts of communication with commuter operations, as well as the dispatcher for permission to back up (assuming the coach doors did not open and all the commuters did not step off the train into the bushes or down an embankment, either of which can cause some serious injuries).

This type of braking, consistently done 30-60 times each day requires a fair amount of concentration. If it sounds easy, next time you are approaching a stop light wait until the last possible second to step as hard as possible (without locking the wheels) on the brakes. If you have to let up on the pedal even just a little bit, you have experienced how difficult it is to pick just the right spot. Notice the very small margin of error. See how it feels (it's rather exciting). That's what a Suburban Engineer does all day, from speeds up to 70mph.

[Mookie]

Zardoz - this is a lot more complicated than I imagined! But I like the explanation - it's clear, concise and in order. Will have to print this off and slowly digest all the points.

Thanx

Mook

[Overmod]

Mook, further reference to the 'watch' question:

It would be fully possible to equip locomotives with a 'repeater' for Internet Stratum 1 or 2 timeservers, which would give an engineer the 'correct' time at a glance. I am currently working on design of a radio-updated railroad watch that is both accurate and precise, and refers both to absolute (NIST) time and to a given railroad's 'official' time. Don't expect most railroads to put this capability on all locomotives by default, though -- and I suspect that lawyers would have an exciting time if railroads put a chronometer on even one engine and there were any subsequent "problems" that involved timekeeping... the analogy with the Gyralites on SP may apply here as well ... "I can't take that engine; the clock doesn't work ... ??!!"

I think the point, however, is a bit deeper: that timekeeping is an INDIVIDUAL responsibility for a trainman, and it's valuable to maintain 'rituals of timekeeping' or whatever else may be desirable to keep a respect for precise time as a 'reflex' in engine crews' thinking. In a world where even cheap quartz watches are essentially capable of being a time standard for the best conventional Swiss chronometers, it becomes practical to expect every railroader to own and maintain an accurate timepiece, and to learn to use it and refer to it regularly. Better still if it's something an engineman can take pride in (which I think was the real point of those damascened, gold-train 23-ruby-jewel watches of the early 20th Century)

I confess to having used this same approach in my automatic train control system of the late '80s: the actual microprocessors that operated the system didn't 'live' on each locomotive, they were carried continuously by each individual engineer, and maintained and tested by him, following the same general principles used to keep railroad watches in good order. It's amazing how this can reduce the capital and maintenance issues with advanced PTC, and instill pride in operation of the train-control system rather than fear or indignation...

[CShaveRR]

Zardoz, I seem to recall reading fairly recently about trains overshooting the station because a landmark tree was cut down.

Nice questions, Sis! Sure gives you a lot of respect for the experienced railroaders, doesn't it?

(I'd wather look at my own railroad-approved watch than a computer any day. And yes, there is a matter of pride there. I keep mine set to within five seconds of correct time, so I know when it starts to misbehave and needs a battery replacement.)

[dldance]

One trip to San Francisco found me on a cable car with a trainee gripman. The trainer was carefully explaining the gripping (starting), braking, and coasting characteristics of each intersection and stop. I have never had a more intersting ride. Not only are they dealing with manual friction brakes, but the cable car's power source as a cable moving at a constant 9 mph. Makes smooth operation a challenge and there is not backing up if they miss a stop.

dd

[Anonymous]

Yup. You'll notice a freshly cut tree when you overshoot a station. In a light mist you have to set the air with a light reduction to heat up the wheels to burn off the mist to avoid the wheels "picking up on you," and shooting by the station. In snow e had to keep a little pressure on to cut the snow off the wheels. Running down the center of a street took a lot of skill and concentration, especially in damp weather. People would pass the train on the right, swerve in fron, and then signal for a left hand turn and stop. Some rush hour schedules were so tight I'd set the brake first, and then shut off. If I'd release the brake even a little I'd have to go right back after 'em to not loose the braking force. A one car train took forever to get stopped. A four car train was nice. On an 8 car train the brakes would set from back to front so spotting one, say at Van Buren Street, took a real feel for the thing. Concentration is the key. It's like having to play a perfect game of Simon Says for 6 hours straight.

There's nothing like a well maintained Hamilton railroad grade pocket watch, keeping perfect time, set correctly to remind one of the importance of time, and its relation to other trains and employees.
Mitch

[Anonymous]

Cable cars do back up. Once they lost the grip on the cable and had to back down the hill to the next level spot to reestabli***he grip. The main problem was getting the automobiles to get out of the way of the backing cable car. No, we did not have a run away, just a poor grip that was slipping and needed to be re caught.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wrwatkins

Cable cars do back up. Once they lost the grip on the cable and had to back down the hill to the next level spot to reestabli***he grip. The main problem was getting the automobiles to get out of the way of the backing cable car. No, we did not have a run away, just a poor grip that was slipping and needed to be re caught.

I believe that would more correctly be termed "backing down"

[Anonymous]

One more story...
In 1971 when I was a fireman on the CNW, I was called to work one of the scoots out of Lake Geneva. For those not familiar, it was a single track branch line that diverged North from the main line at Crystal Lake. It was so foggy that morning that one couldn't see the train from the depot. You couldn't see anything in fact. Running from the cab car the engineer released the brakes and departed Lake Geneva on time when he got the highball. He notched out the throttle and sat looking at his watch and sounding the whistle. As he looked at his watch he shut off, and set the brake as usual. Without being able to see a thing he got us stopped right at the little platform at Pell Lake. I asked him, "Howdja do that?" He said, "Simple. I just looked at my watch."
Mitch

[jeaton]

And some some think people like that could be replaced by a machine!!!

I once met a former IC engineer (not retired) said he could not only hit the spot at the head of a 100 car coal train, but also claimed to be able to spot the caboose so the crew could step off on the narrow boardwalk that crossed the tracks to the yard office-on the first try. I was a little skeptical.

Of course, NOW I am sorry I sold my Hamilton when I left train service. I guess someone at age 21 has different priorities.

Jay

[jrw249]

On a tourist line I help on we have to stop at the station within about a 2 foot distance because of a handicap ramp we have align with. Gets a little tricky with 6 heavyweights and a dead engine behind.

[Anonymous]

Back in my training days, my engineer, Sully had told me, "You hit that camp crossing at 50 with the brakes set up, you'll have 'em in your lap; no problem getting down to 30 [a speed restriction] at Rocks." Well one morning, Sully, who by now trusted me implicitly, was sound asleep. The fog along the river was THICK, and I was doing 55 and needed to get down to 30 at Rocks. Looking along the tracks below the cab, I was straining to find some landmarks. I figured it was about right here, so made a brake reduction. The air stopped blowing; the speed started to drop off; I recognized the camp crossing as we rolled over it in the potato soup AT 50!

About this time, Sully woke from his beauty nap. Looking up in the fog, he saw the permanent 30mph marker. Now, he didn't hear me make the brake reduction, and here I am doing considerably more than that. Not knowing the brakes are set up, and thinking we're running released into a 30mph restriction at almost 50, he jumps up out of the seat and hollers, "Put the brake on!" He reaches around the control stand and puts'er in Full Service. She only needed a small reduction and notching off; she'd a sat right down at 30. Instead, we stopped in the interlocking. "I'm sorry, skeets, I didn't hear you put the brake on."

I sang "Beautiful Dreamer" at him occasionally after that. He could dish it out, but he could take it too. He took it in good humor; it was the only thing I could pick on him about, because he didn't mess up often. Rest in peace, old friend.

[jeaton]

I wouldn't want the engineer on my train running blindfolded, but I can tell you from my own train riding experiences, if you run up and down the same piece of track day after day you can tell where you are with your eyes closed. Maybe not quite as tight as with visual clues, but...

Jay

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton

And some some think people like that could be replaced by a machine!!!

I once met a former IC engineer (not retired) said he could not only hit the spot at the head of a 100 car coal train, but also claimed to be able to spot the caboose so the crew could step off on the narrow boardwalk that crossed the tracks to the yard office-on the first try. I was a little skeptical.

Jay

I would be a bit skeptical, too; it's just not that easy to do--too many variables. If the engineer was advised at one time by a conductor when the caboose was at the crosswalk, the engineer could pick a landmark and try to stop near that next time. But to spot a mile-long freight train's caboose at a crosswalk--well, I would have to see it to believe it. And any hogger that says he can do it consistently is just slightly exaggerating. A station platform maybe, but not a crosswalk.