I was wondering about crew change points along the UP and BNSF in the Midwest. If anybody could help me out, that would be awesome.
This you will find in the Timetable!
OK, LION knows that tey went from 100 mile runs to 200 mile runs some time about 10 years ago.
LION *knows* that Mandan is a crew change point, but Dickinson is so no longer, and the next crew change point is Glendive, MT. Dickinson crews still run locals between New Salem and Beach including the ever growing rail hub of RICHARDTON ND.
For the moment I still have more tracks, trains, and switches then they do, but that is changing rapidly, as two new rail facilities are planned for this town.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Although you may have to be a subscriber to access it, there is a map of BNSF crew districts in the Trains' Railroad Reference section under railroad maps. I thought they also did a UP crew district map too, but I may be thinking about a map on the UP company website.
For pay purposes, a basic day is 130 miles, up from the original 100 mile day for freight. This doesn't mean that runs were only 100 miles then or 130 miles now. Some were/are longer, some were/are shorter. Many times after the adoption of the 130 mile day, the terminals didn't change. It just affects the way the train crew's pay is calculated.
Some railroads do have expanded crew districts. Some are overlays on existing crew districts for certain type trains, intermodal for example. Others are where two adjacent crew districts were merged into one, with the crews running through the former change point between the two on all, or most trains.
Jeff
Butler and Adams in Wisconsin.
Maybe an old BN expert can help us here, but didn't BN change some crew districts in Montana to run up to 450 miles? I though I saw articles in the mainstream press in the '80's that they were extending crew districts from east of Spokane, WA, across the Idaho panhandle, and over onto the flatland's of Montana. I haven't heard of this in a long time, so maybe this was a failed idea.
On the CPR, in Canada, the longest crew district is the Brooks Sub. from Calgary to Medicine Hat, AB, created in 1910. It is approximately 185 miles long, which was a huge accomplishment back then. It is interesting when you look at old ETT's. Every scheduled train from First Class passenger trains to Fourth Class freights had a scheduled stop for water at Bassano. This was indicated by a bold type stripe across the page for every train at Bassano. Bassano was located at almost the exact halfway point on the Sub. CP never owned any of those ginormous tenders like the Santa Fe had to get across the arid areas they served.
Apparently extending crew districts is in E. Hunter Harrison's bag of tricks, which as far as I know now, he hasn't yet pulled out. But I hear it is coming.
Bruce
EDIT: To answer the original poster's question I checked with what limited ressources I have, and found the following CP (ex Soo Line) crew change points in his part of the world. Harvey and Enderlin, ND; Glenwood, Thief River Falls, and Minneapolis/St. Paul MN. Also Portal, ND and Noyes, MN, but that is because thay are also Country change points(Canada/US border).
In Canada CN began running longer crew districts on the prairies in the 1990's, I think. (200+ miles?). Back to CP for a moment, Calgary-Edmonton, AB is broken into two Sub's.,Red Deer and Leduc, totaling about 180 miles. I believe it was cptrainman of the "Hunter, . .so far" thread who said that through frieghts now use only one crew, but way freights are still supplied with crews on each Sub.
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
If I recall correctly, the Miles City to Harlowtown run was one crew district which works out to 215 miles. The Western Pacific also had some ~200 mile crew districts. Note that the Puget Sound Extension and the WP were built in the 1905-1910 time frame and train speeds were up significantly from 30 to 40 years earlier.
- Erik
The Milwaukee Road in the 1970s combined or changed some crew districts, both on the Puget Sound extension and elsewhere. I think the Miles City to Harlowton run was one of them. I have to look thru some stuff, but I think they used to change at Melstone, MT. Other changes on the PCE were Alberton, MT to St. Maries, ID and St. Maries, ID to Othello, WA. This change made two crew districts out of what were three, running thru the traditional terminals at Avery, ID and Malden, WA. Othello, WA to Tacoma, WA, running thru Cle Elum was also instituted.
In Iowa, they started running Atkins, IA on the Council Bluffs main and Nahant (Davenport) on the KC line.
UP on the east/west line crew bases or change points are: Proviso IL, West Chicago IL (some trains), Clinton IA, Boone IA (short pool), Missouri Valley IA (Clinton long pool), Fremont NE (short pool out of Boone) North Platte NE. Within these districts there are pools that work to/from intermediate terminals, such as Clinton to Marshalltown.
Jeff, can you tell us the reason for having the two pools (short and long)? Can someone in road service choose which pool to work in?
Thanks,
Johnny
The Clinton-Mo Valley long pool handles mostly intermodal trains. Originally they had the hot trains, with the lesser ones going to the short pool. Lately, they are also handling most of the auto racks and one Q manifest. (Except when that train gets too long, then it goes back to the short pool.) They also handle (normally) the salad shooters. When crews are tight on either pool at either end, they use crews out of either pool. Usually though, a long pool crew on trains that normally go to the short pool will still change out at Boone and the LP crew will continue on to the other end in a van.
Anyone on the seniority district can work the pool, assuming they have the seniority. When the pool was smaller, you had to have about 30 years in to hold it. It's grown enough that engineer's need about half of that, even less for conductors. Drawback for those that don't live near Clinton is the drive. There are quite a few who live in central Iowa and drive 200 miles to work the pool. (Some of these are the same ones who always complained about the long pool because the LP crews usually get priority to get over the road, no matter what type of train they are on, so they usually go around you.)
The reason why so many (former complainers included) drive to work it, it's set up to work about 8 round trips per month and pays good. While it may not save the railroad money on wages, it saves them on the cost of benefits. A train in the long pool uses one less crew than if it goes to the short pool. A couple less employees to receive benefits.
jeffhergert The Milwaukee Road in the 1970s combined or changed some crew districts, both on the Puget Sound extension and elsewhere. I think the Miles City to Harlowton run was one of them. I have to look thru some stuff, but I think they used to change at Melstone, MT.
The Milwaukee Road in the 1970s combined or changed some crew districts, both on the Puget Sound extension and elsewhere. I think the Miles City to Harlowton run was one of them. I have to look thru some stuff, but I think they used to change at Melstone, MT.
Melstone was almost certainly a crew change location in that it was almost exactly halfway between Harlow and Miles, along with being the only spot between Roundup and Miles City with more than two parallel tracks.
I recall seeing a Steffee speed survey (mid-1960's?) showing freights running at 50+ MPH between Miles City and Harlowton, which would put the start to stop time at a bit over 4 hours. Even a 25 MPH scheduled speed would result in an 8 hour trip. With only one curve sharper than 3 degrees between the two points, the track alignment was well suited for 50 to 60 MPH freight running - though track maintenance may have been another story.
erikem jeffhergert The Milwaukee Road in the 1970s combined or changed some crew districts, both on the Puget Sound extension and elsewhere. I think the Miles City to Harlowton run was one of them. I have to look thru some stuff, but I think they used to change at Melstone, MT. Melstone was almost certainly a crew change location in that it was almost exactly halfway between Harlow and Miles, along with being the only spot between Roundup and Miles City with more than two parallel tracks. I recall seeing a Steffee speed survey (mid-1960's?) showing freights running at 50+ MPH between Miles City and Harlowton, which would put the start to stop time at a bit over 4 hours. Even a 25 MPH scheduled speed would result in an 8 hour trip. With only one curve sharper than 3 degrees between the two points, the track alignment was well suited for 50 to 60 MPH freight running - though track maintenance may have been another story. - Erik
The 100 mile day was based on how far you would travel in 8 hours at a speed of 12.5 mph. I find it ironic that the MILW expandend some of their districts just as deferred maintenance caused speeds to drop. Which meant that many crews might not be able to make the far treminal on their HOS.
I just remembered, while sitting in the Oak Tree Inn at Clinton, IA, that they are the UP's contracted provider for crew lodging away from home. (While not directly owned, supposedly the ownership has ties to the UP.) Not every crew change point has one (Mason City, IA may be getting one in the future) but except for the few in the eastern US, all are UP crew change points.
http://www.oaktreeinn.com/Hotels is a current list of hotels.
While they have been built to provide lodging for AFHT crews, they are open to the public as well. So if you want to rub elbows with train crews while you travel, the Oak Tree is the place to do it.
Jeff:Thanks for the explanations. I listen to the CSX on my scanner and often the dispatcher will ask if they are a Garrett or Williard crew. Garrett - Chciago is about 150 miles while Williard - Chicago is around 280.
They seem to use the Williard crews for the long distance intermodals (from east coast) and Williards for the manifests and commodity trains. Plus a new pool might be in place to handle the New Baltimore intermodal terminal. All in all, it is an interesting aspect to the industry.
Years ago while overnighting in the Super 8 in Ft Madison, Iowa I had the pleasure to talk to a BNSF (ex Santa Fe) crewman. The Super 8 was their lodging and it was set up with a computer terminal for employees to "see" the railroad and determine what their near future entailed. Staying at one of the lodging motels can be interesting, but I wouldnt suggest being too inquiring these days. Things changed since Sept 11, 2001.
Ed
jeffhergert The 100 mile day was based on how far you would travel in 8 hours at a speed of 12.5 mph. I find it ironic that the MILW expandend some of their districts just as deferred maintenance caused speeds to drop. Which meant that many crews might not be able to make the far treminal on their HOS.
Back in the olde steam days, 100 miles could be covered in 12 hours at a bit over 8 MPH or so, HOS laws were a bit different back then...
I'd wonder if the average speed of the slowest Milwaukee freights on the Trans-Missouri Division during the first generation diesel era would have been more like 25 MPH as opposed to 12.5 MPH. In order to get a minimum speed of 12 or so MPH on the 0.5% ruling grades, the locomotives should have been able to maintain 25 or more MPH on level track, hence my wondering about 200 mile crew changes.
I spent quite a few summers in Miles City (my dad's home town) during the 1970's and heard Harlowton mentioned quite a few times, but don't recall hearing about Melstone. Curiosity about Melstone got to me and found out that it now has a population of 96, down from 136 in 2000. Satellite view on Google maps shows a lot of empty lots in the town and I guess that the population may have been 300 to 500 at its peak. The satellite view clearly shows impressions of a turntable and roundhouse across the highway from the town.
erikem jeffhergert The 100 mile day was based on how far you would travel in 8 hours at a speed of 12.5 mph. I find it ironic that the MILW expandend some of their districts just as deferred maintenance caused speeds to drop. Which meant that many crews might not be able to make the far treminal on their HOS. Back in the olde steam days, 100 miles could be covered in 12 hours at a bit over 8 MPH or so, HOS laws were a bit different back then... I'd wonder if the average speed of the slowest Milwaukee freights on the Trans-Missouri Division during the first generation diesel era would have been more like 25 MPH as opposed to 12.5 MPH. In order to get a minimum speed of 12 or so MPH on the 0.5% ruling grades, the locomotives should have been able to maintain 25 or more MPH on level track, hence my wondering about 200 mile crew changes. - Erik
Remember, in the time when the basic crew agreements and the 100 mile day were originated, when after the implementation of the Hours of Service laws - those laws had a maximum on duty time of 16 hours - 16 hours for a 100 mile run equals 6.25 MPH. In the early 1970's the law was changed to 14 hours and subsequently todays 12 hours.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Correct, the hours of service were changed as follows:
16 hours to 14 hours on December 26, 1970
14 hours to 12 hours on December 26, 1972
SLOCONDR
Jeff, another hotel where you can rub shoulders with men in road service is the Clarion Hotel in Albany, N.Y. The hotel provides transportation for the crews and for passengers who come in or go out of the station in Renssalaer, and it is possible to ride in a van with the railroad employees. The last time we were in Albany, we rode back to the station with a road crew in the van, and I engaged in some conversation with them.
Deggesty Jeff, another hotel where you can rub shoulders with men in road service is the Clarion Hotel in Albany, N.Y. The hotel provides transportation for the crews and for passengers who come in or go out of the station in Renssalaer, and it is possible to ride in a van with the railroad employees. The last time we were in Albany, we rode back to the station with a road crew in the van, and I engaged in some conversation with them.
No offense to the posters here, but...
Back in my road days, when we'd end up at a hotel after a very long and tiring trip, and some guy who was obviously an over-eager railfan would see us and ask us if we were railroaders, we'd always answer: NOPE!
Nothing against the over-eager railfans, but the only thing we wanted to think about was sleep.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Zug, I still enjoy talking with railroad employees, but I am very careful about initiating conversations. Whenever I go to the local Amtrak station I enjoy talking with the agent when he is not busy with other people, even telling him that his worst nightmare has come back to him. Five years ago, a conductor on the Southwest Chief initiated a conversation with me when, as I was standing in the aisle outside the room my wife and I occupied, she ran into my arms. She apologized and I pardoned her and let her go on to wherever it was she needed to go quickly.
Zug, you guys must have really been tired. For some railroaders getting in on the other end, actually either end, the first thing they think about is beer.
jeffhergert Zug, you guys must have really been tired. For some railroaders getting in on the other end, actually either end, the first thing they think about is beer. Jeff
I guess you're right. I'm a teetotaler, so that thought is never on my mind.
BNSF crews frequently change crews here at Eola yard in Aurora, IL. At times they will change within minutes of stopping at the "crosswalk" where employees cross the mainline, and at other times the incoming crew will "tie down" their train on the main-line and the train will wait for literally hours on the main for the outgoing (new) crew. We see this very often here.
For some reason, I always thought crew change points were determined by how long it took to get there. In older times, it would take much longer as the trains were slower. Frisco always changed freight crews at Newburg, MO but my grandpa as passenger conductor changed at Monett, MO, which was farther down the line.
I can remember when the "featherbedding" talk began, about needing to keep crews in the trains longer because the trains were faster and did they really need three men in the cab and two in the rear.
I hear talk about crews having to be changed because trains are late and their time is up, that doesn't seem to go by mileage. I know OTR truckers are only to work so many hours before they have to sign out and rest.
Same with RR'ers in TEY service. They can only work 12 hours by federal law. Back in the 60's, the SP had a run out of Los Angeles to Santa Barbara, CA. Sometimes it would take the the full 16 hours on the HOS to make the run. Then in 1972 (after the HOS was changed to 14 hours, Dec. 26, 1970) the company decided to open up an inter-divisional run from LA to San Luis Obispo), and have us do it in 14 hours, which really worked good. The dispatchers were forced to make better meets, yardmasters to get trains out of the yards better and so on. Today, 41 years later and the HOS at 12 hours (changed Dec. 26, 1972) the crew usually do not have trouble making it from SLO to LA (which is still inter-divisional, but only a one ended pool).
Some crew change points were simply the points at which one railroad had a junction with another. For instance, Sanford, Florida, was the south end of one railroad and the north end of another; both roads were absorbed by the Plant System--which went into the Atlantic Coast Line. If I had not already packed my 1893 Guide in preparation for moving, I could give you the name of each road.
And, crew change points were (and still are) not always the same for engine crews and for train crews on the same train. Men in road service on the Louisiana Division of the IC were based in McComb, Mississippi, which is about 100 miles from New Orleans and from Canton, Mississippi--and about 149 miles from Gwin, Mississippi, on the route through the Delta (the last two were junctions with the Tennessee Division) Passenger trains ran between Canton and New Orleans, and through freights ran between Gwin and New Orleans, on the Louisiana Division. Back when there were foru passenger trains each way on the division, except for the City of New Orleans, passenger train crews changed southbound (the City train crews changed northbound), ran to New Orleans (Canton), then ran through McComb to Canton (New Orleans), and then back to McComb, covering 400 miles in 24 hours (and then had 24 hours off). All engine crews changed in McComb; thus all passenger engine crews ran 100 miles from start to finish. Men in chain gang freight service preferred being called in McComb for a run to Gwin, since it was farther than a run to New Orleans. I wish I had asked a trainman how the pay was calculated, since some of the turn arounds were short.
Probaly a question for Jeff H... Does the UP still have a Proviso to Boone long pool? Or, did they get rid of it because there was too much congestion / delays east of Clinton?
CC
Chris30 Probaly a question for Jeff H... Does the UP still have a Proviso to Boone long pool? Or, did they get rid of it because there was too much congestion / delays east of Clinton? Thanks, CC
No, they never had a Proviso - Boone long pool. Only the Clinton - Missouri Valley long pool.
About ten years ago the railroad proposed moving almost everyone from Boone to Rochelle. Then run pools (through Clinton) to Missouri Valley (hot intermodals only), to Boone (everything else), and pools to Des Moines and Mason City. The unions were able to get the UP to agree to leave Boone as home terminal for the Rochelle - Boone pools, but shortly thereafter the railroad dropped the whole idea. At the time we were having trouble going from Boone to Clinton in 12 hours. I doubt many trains could've made the extra 70 or so miles to Rochelle on their hours. Currently, it's possible to make Clinton and tie up within 6 hours on duty, on a coal train no less. Something unheard of even 5 years ago, just before the bottom dropped out.
When they eventually finish their Blair and Clinton projects (not any time soon) I expect a push to change the crew districts.
Good threads on this string. A minor correction to Agentkid's posting. The oldest long crew division on CP in Canada is the Brooks Subdivision from Medicine Hat to Alyth (Calgary). However, the longest crew division is CP's Belleville Subdivision from Smiths Falls ON to Toronto Yard (197 track miles) where the Toronto Terminal officially begins or ends. The "run through" was established in 1970, not too long before I started my railway career with CP in that area. Trenton ON was eliminated as an away from home terminal for Toronto East Pool and Smiths Falls West Pool crews. From then to now trains on this subdivision are crewed by running trades employees whose home terminals are at Toronto and Smiths Falls.
I'm sure that longer crew districts in other places are coming...
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