Tech column survey

[Juniatha]

Hi Kathi

 

My choice

I.

# 3 ;  7 ( last point ;  I've wondered , too !  one thing's for sure :  first of all and before anything else for the inventor it means to invest money !  money , money and money again to keep the trade of lawyers doing swell , no matter what the benefit if any for the inventor )

II.

# 1 ;  3 ;  6

III.

# 5    

So-called Bio-Fuel is of course 

- N-O-T -

CO2-neutral !  

I wonder how so many people can believe this greatest fraud ever invented since ...

( complete by your own choice )

On the contrary Bio-Fuel really presents yet another major death cause for precious rain forests and other natural resources , even threatening agricultural food production , at least sending prices skywards of basic nourishments for a large part , actually the majority ! of people world-wide and contributing to a further (!) speeding up of present day's over-exploitation of the planet's resources while at the same time devastating them , basically in consequence of general ignorance , unbelievable stupidity , incredible selfishness and recklessness .   In a nutshell , it's a scheme to keep 'the addict at the needle and the pusher in business' after should-be turn-around point of Peak-Oil has been passed , instead of going ahead at full power with what has to be done as concerns research and innovation in the field of energy supply structures .   But just look at what they have 'agreed' at the latest environmental summit meeting ...

Kind regards

Juniatha

[tdmidget]

Far easier to list the ones not to waste time on:

1. biodiesel. It's a stupid idea, an even worse loser than corn ethanol.

2. fuel vapor recovery. Here's another loser. Diesel isn't so volatile that it should be a problem.

3. Patent process. This not railroad related. Anyone can find out easily

4. trackworker warning device. Someone has too much time on his hands. We already have 2 , the horn and the bell.

 

I too, would like detailed articles on locomotive trucks.

[MidlandMike]

tdmidget

Far easier to list the ones not to waste time on:

1. biodiesel. It's a stupid idea, an even worse loser than corn ethanol.

I would like to see an article that would make the case either way.

2. fuel vapor recovery. Here's another loser. Diesel isn't so volatile that it should be a problem.

If you can smell the product, it is volatile.  Again I would like to see an article including pros and cons.

3. Patent process. This not railroad related. Anyone can find out easily

4. trackworker warning device. Someone has too much time on his hands. We already have 2 , the horn and the bell.

The people who don't have time on their hands are the track workers who have been killed.  Again, I would like to see an article.

 

I too, would like detailed articles on locomotive trucks.

Thank you Kathi, for listening to my opposing views to some of the above.

[edbenton]

MM we have had Hot Fuel recovery systems in the OTR side from the excess fuel that is not injected into the Cylinders and also in Locomotive Prime Movers there is the Same Setup on Common Rail Injection Setups.  The amount of Vapor that is lost off of a Gallon of Diesel Fuel is something in the area of 1/8 teaspoon per Gallon at 110 degrees on a fuel that has a auto Ignition point of 490 Degrees roughly.

  The amount of cooling needed to get the temps to do what is required to capture the Vapor was looked at on the OTR side to comply with the EPA regs by CAT 10 years ago and it would have added 2K lbs of weight to the ENGINE alone and roughly another 2500 Lbs of equipment to the Trucks so 2.5 Tons to capture roughly 1 gallon in Vapors per 300 gallons of liquids and they had major issues with Maintance Problems like Leaking Coolant into the Fuel and DESTROYING THE INJECTORS and fuel leaking into the Coolant and Destroying Seals and then Coolant into oil and BLOWING THE ENGINES.  So if you think adding on a SD70ACE 10 Tons of equipment that will fail and Destroy the Prime Mover to save .005 cents a mile in cost but it costs .10 cents a mile to maintain is worth it BY ALL MEANS Come up with one. 

 

They are not worth the Effort needed to come up with them the RR's have bigger fish to fry right now with the EPA Tier 4 Mandate less than 3 Years off and EMD thinking of EGR Valves for that as the OTR side tried and DIED on them and everyone from Cummins Volvo Detroit Mack and Paccar has Gone to SCR with DPF ONLY.  Have fun when the EMD's are puking their Guts out.

[MidlandMike]

Thanks EB, always glad to hear from someone with mechanical experience concerning the topic.  It's obvious there are problems with the added system, but a technical editor like Ms. Kube could probably explain it so that less mechanically adept people like myself could catch on.  Also, I would like to hear the history of why it came about in the first place (it must have sounded like a good idea to at least someone.)

[edbenton]

Basically what your wanting is simalr the Charoal Cainster Vapor Recovery System we have on Cars now with Gas and E85.  Well one small Problem with that since Diesel Fuel does not Evaporate near as Fast a Gas does at normal Room temps.  Diesel has a Vapor Temp over over 120 Degrees and Gas is IIRC around 75.  Diesel however has More Energy per Gallon than Gas but is Harder to Ignite and is next to impossible to light with a Lighter. 

 

See how the Canister System works on your car is like this your Fuel tank when the engine is running is under a Slight Vacucum I think IIRC like 1 or 2 Inches of Vac just enough to make sure their are no leaks.  That is why your SES light will pop on if you leave the cap off the System can not get to VAC.  Well at first your just getting Fuel only into the System however after the engine and Emissions system have warmed up to temp on your car a Valve in the Cansiter opens and it starts metering the Vapors it has recovered into the Intake Manifold and therefore into the Cylinders where they are ignited by the Spark Plugs and out the Tail Pipes. 

 

See that is where on a Diesel it would NEVER Work why a Gas Engine is Spark Ignition a Diesel Engine is COMPRESSION Ignition meaning the Pressure of the Air in the Cylinders compressed by the Cylinders is all that lights the Fuel that is Injected into the Cylinders.  A EMD 2 stroke Motor has a Max Cylinder Compression temp of around 1000 Degrees Every time that Piston comes up your reaching 1K degrees in AIrtemp alone BEFORE the Fuel is Injected into it and then you are getting to around 1500 Degrees everytime for a few Seconds.  For a 4 Stroke your Compression temps are in the area of 1100-1200 Degrees as the Piston has a Complete Air change every time.  Your max Air Temp with Combustion is around 1500-1700 Degrees also.  The reason why the Valves do not Burn is they are Sodium Cooled and very Well Heat Treated to withstand the Heat.  The Pistons have Oil Cooling from Below on them. 

 

So what would be the Issue for a Vapor Recovery system in Diesels one Getting the Vapors back to a Liquid State to be INJECTED into the Cylinder you can not just mix it with the air as it will cause Pre Ignition and destroy the motor.  Second the Vapors you do recover are not going to want to stay Liquid and are going to want to LEAVE the Fuel faster than you can get them into the Cylinders from the Tank and if it tries to leave the Fuel in lines your going to get an air pocket in a Fuel Line leading to Scoring of Injectors Blowing  C IO)(XCSSD*)UOuioa&iP[/T5IK9Aaaaaaa3whttp://hypertextbook.com/facts/2005/EileenTang.shtml2wlp212[12][q`1q`1

[MidlandMike]

EB, thanks for having the patience to explain the vapor recovery problems. I can see that if it is not done right with diesels, it could cause pre-ignition and other engine life ending events.  Also, that cooling equipment they tried 10 years ago could add so much weight that they would probably burn up even more fuel. 

Sometimes at trade shows, maybe even one of the ones that Trains attended, a snake oil salesman will sneak in a booth among the legitimate vendors.  Maybe that is who is pushing the vapor recovery idea, but I really hope it is someone with a new idea that would work.  

[Number 90]

Three piece truck, roller bearings, locomotive cab safety.