zugmann Guess we know who us geeks are on this forum...
Guess we know who us geeks are on this forum...
+1 Count me in their number. I was just too busy lately to jump in earlier.
And only Canadian road units getting food replicators was great.
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
doo doo bedoo bah..mana mana....
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
EMD#1 KBCpresident - to answer your question as to why desktop control stands were dropped in the US. We engineers demanded it. This one issue was probably one of the top complaints management would receive every time they came face to face with an engineer. Desktop control stands may be okay for subway trains but they are a nightmare for diesel-electric locomotives here in the US. This was just another case where someone in the office with zero experience behind a throttle thought it was a great idea. Reminds me of the complaints US pilots made during the Viet-Nam war about taking the guns off all of their fighter jets and relying solely on missiles. The folks back on the ground thought guns mounted on jets were out-dated. Sound familiar? After spending all day running a desk-top control stand equipped engine your back and neck aches from the unnatural position your put in when operating one. The horn is activated by pushing a button which gets old in a hurry. The brake system (Independent and Automatic) is backwards compared to the North American control stand. And the throttle is harder to manipulate to control one notch at a time. On a desktop when switching cars you control the throttle with your left hand and the brakes with your right. On a North American control stand it it just the opposite. Actually most of the time on a North American control stand it only takes your left hand to control everything unless your attempting to position railcars on an exact spot where you need to control power and brake at the same time. I for one am glad new locomotives are no longer being built with desktop control stands and I look forward to the day when all of the older desktop control stand locomotives are either rebuilt with standard control stands or retired all together! Tim NS Locomotive Engineer
KBCpresident - to answer your question as to why desktop control stands were dropped in the US. We engineers demanded it. This one issue was probably one of the top complaints management would receive every time they came face to face with an engineer. Desktop control stands may be okay for subway trains but they are a nightmare for diesel-electric locomotives here in the US. This was just another case where someone in the office with zero experience behind a throttle thought it was a great idea. Reminds me of the complaints US pilots made during the Viet-Nam war about taking the guns off all of their fighter jets and relying solely on missiles. The folks back on the ground thought guns mounted on jets were out-dated. Sound familiar?
After spending all day running a desk-top control stand equipped engine your back and neck aches from the unnatural position your put in when operating one. The horn is activated by pushing a button which gets old in a hurry. The brake system (Independent and Automatic) is backwards compared to the North American control stand. And the throttle is harder to manipulate to control one notch at a time. On a desktop when switching cars you control the throttle with your left hand and the brakes with your right. On a North American control stand it it just the opposite. Actually most of the time on a North American control stand it only takes your left hand to control everything unless your attempting to position railcars on an exact spot where you need to control power and brake at the same time.
I for one am glad new locomotives are no longer being built with desktop control stands and I look forward to the day when all of the older desktop control stand locomotives are either rebuilt with standard control stands or retired all together!
Tim
NS Locomotive Engineer
I work with both types, and again, I don't feel much different after spending a day on either type. Any discomfort is usually due to the seats used.
When it comes to actually manipulating the controls, on a control stand I use my left hand for most everything. On the desk-top, mostly my right. I agree about the horn buttons, but mostly because there are few different ones in use and some are more sensitive (you have to push them just right to get them to work) than others. On either type, there will be times you need to use both hands, and I actually think in some cases the desk top is easier because everything is in front of you. (One rule that I don't follow exactly is one that requires one to actuate (bail) the independent before and during the automatic brake application. I learned from old heads who set the air, then used the same hand to bail the independent and that's how I do it. Left handed on the stand, right handed on the desk top) There have been times on either kind where I've had by hands full, one operating the horn for a crossing, the other bailing the independent after making an automatic application trying to get speed under 40 to avoid having a penalty brake application (ATC) and then having to acknowledge the cab signal change when passing the signal. Hands are full, what to do? Use my knee to push the acknowledging button on the control stand, use my elbow to push the button on the desk top.
I also can agree about moving the throttle on the desk-top, on many engines it's too easy to jump a notch. This is usually more about how loose or stiff the throttle is, rather than being on a desk top. I had some control stand throttles that were a bit stiff, too.
I do like the control stand set up over the desk top style. I just don't see where one is better than the other in most cases. I've only been in engine service for 8 years and most of the engines going through our terminal were desk top styles until the resurgence of control stands. Our local and yard power were all older engines with control stands and so were engines in some of the manifest pool rotation. (I liked the exCNW SD40-2 we had although most didn't mostly because of the ride quality on the old engines and they didn't have AC. Complaints to management, hoping to get newer SD70m power in those pools, did bring changes. They gave us the exCNW GEs instead. No one thought that was an improvement.) So maybe I don't have the vested interest in the control stand like others.
The reason I prefer the control stands? It feels more like being a locomotive engineer using those controls instead of a desk top. I wonder if psychology dosen't play a bit of a role in others preferences, too? Even though they don't realize it.
Jeff
jeffhergert I wonder if psychology doesn't play a bit of a role in others preferences, too? Even though they don't realize it.
I wonder if psychology doesn't play a bit of a role in others preferences, too? Even though they don't realize it.
I think psychology plays a huge role
Dad was very resistant to certain changes. At first it seems like the old resistance to change idea, but looking into it further, it has do to with having years more practice doing something the old way than the new guys have. He could say he could do a task far more quickly the old way, which would be an ego boost for him, when in fact he had simply done it that way many more times than the younger workers.
A newer employee who has done something one way for only a few years is far less likely to balk at trying something new. Whereas, for an older employee, the old way is his ace in the hole when it comes time to compare productivity of one worker against another. And staying ahead, or at least being equal in productivity, is one way of measuring worker satisfaction.
One example, if Dad had had his way, you fellows still wouldn't have cab radios! You've already got your train orders.
jeffhergert .....I liked the exCNW SD40-2 we had although most didn't mostly because of the ride quality on the old engines and they didn't have AC.......
.....I liked the exCNW SD40-2 we had although most didn't mostly because of the ride quality on the old engines and they didn't have AC.......
Compared with the crappy GP40s, SD40s, and worn-out Alco and Fairbanks rattletraps, the SD40-2 was really nice. Although for quite a while we rarely saw them on the Wisconsin Division; when they were new they spent most of their days prancing around on the Geneva Division.
AgentKid One example, if Dad had had his way, you fellows still wouldn't have cab radios! You've already got your train orders. Bruce
Having hired out on a TTTO (Timetable & Train Orders) segment of railroad, I can understand where your father is coming from.
However, understanding Train Orders, both from the Dispatcher and T&E perspective was not accomplished with a 6 month or less training program followed up with a couple of months OJT.
Todays Operating Rules, with both Track Warrent and Direct Train Control forms of 'dark territory' are much more straight forward and understandable than TTTO ever was - it has to be considering the number of new employees that are being hired and placed in service by all the carriers in all positions that are out in the field (and in the Dispatching offices).
The old ways were romantic, however, they were also inefficient and difficult to learn. When was the last time you saw a 'wayside telephone'.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Thee is actually a couple of 'Waysides' on a CP line near Woodstock Yard...not sure if the ding thing is still operational however...
blownout cylinder Thee is actually a couple of 'Waysides' on a CP line near Woodstock Yard...not sure if the ding thing is still operational however...
Does someone have a picture of the new desktop control stand that you can post? I would like to see what it looks lik.
zardoz blownout cylinder: Thee is actually a couple of 'Waysides' on a CP line near Woodstock Yard...not sure if the ding thing is still operational however... Those were always such fun to try to locate in the middle of a blizzard and/or at night. And even more fun for the trainman to slog thru the snow to use it.
blownout cylinder: Thee is actually a couple of 'Waysides' on a CP line near Woodstock Yard...not sure if the ding thing is still operational however...
Just follow the hornets - they are returning to their nest at the phones location!
BaltACD zardoz: blownout cylinder: Thee is actually a couple of 'Waysides' on a CP line near Woodstock Yard...not sure if the ding thing is still operational however... Those were always such fun to try to locate in the middle of a blizzard and/or at night. And even more fun for the trainman to slog thru the snow to use it. Just follow the hornets - they are returning to their nest at the phones location!
zardoz: blownout cylinder: Thee is actually a couple of 'Waysides' on a CP line near Woodstock Yard...not sure if the ding thing is still operational however... Those were always such fun to try to locate in the middle of a blizzard and/or at night. And even more fun for the trainman to slog thru the snow to use it.
I really have to go back there sometime and get better photos of the ones here...they are completely covered by either vines or tiger lilies..one is in a ditch of all dang things..the other not so much...
gsrrman Does someone have a picture of the new desktop control stand that you can post? I would like to see what it looks lik.
If you google locomotive control desks-images this is what you might find.....
blownout cylinder gsrrman: Does someone have a picture of the new desktop control stand that you can post? I would like to see what it looks lik. If you google locomotive control desks-images this is what you might find.....
gsrrman: Does someone have a picture of the new desktop control stand that you can post? I would like to see what it looks lik.
Some company (name escapes me) was making a 1/3 size desktop controller that could be connected to your computer to use with the railroad simulations available. I think it could also be adapted for model railroads.
They also came out with a full size control stand that could also be hooked up to a computer. I think the sales pitch for this was aimed more for small and tourist railroads to set up their own training simulator. I think they also had a RCO controller modelled after the Canac/Cattron Theimeg box.
I don't think I've seen an ad for any of these in a while.
I came across this simulator just now...
You can't throw your feet up on the heater with a desktop.
co2716ehp You can't throw your feet up on the heater with a desktop.
Bad position..it invites sleep disorders....
But you can put your feet over the desktop, unless there is a Harris box there. Well, others can. I've tried and I don't think it's very comfortable.
Then there was one picture, I don't remember where I saw it, showed an engineer with his feet out the window.
jeffhergertSome company (name escapes me) was making a 1/3 size desktop controller that could be connected to your computer to use with the railroad simulations available. I think it could also be adapted for model railroads. They also came out with a full size control stand that could also be hooked up to a computer. I think the sales pitch for this was aimed more for small and tourist railroads to set up their own training simulator. I think they also had a RCO controller modelled after the Canac/Cattron Theimeg box.
RailDriver.
I've got one. It's not perfect, but it beats the tar out of repeated pushing keyboard keys to accomplish something like applying the brakes, etc.
They're still available.
The full sized console is pricey - about 6 large a few years ago. I always thought it would be cool to have one set up in a trailer with some specific territories and sell "throttle time" at train shows... The RD people did have one at Owosso a couple years ago.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
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