Looks like some (all?) of the original UP streamliners had HEP and steam too
https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Union-Pacific-Equip-Diagrams/UP-Streamliner-Passenger-Diagrams/i-v6LKKCN/A
timz Remember how some CNW Geeps had walkway-level bulges? At the end of the long hood, I think. Seems to me that was something to do with HEP. Maybe they could still have a boiler in the short hood. No doubt X2200S would answer the question, but I got rid of my collection.
Remember how some CNW Geeps had walkway-level bulges? At the end of the long hood, I think. Seems to me that was something to do with HEP. Maybe they could still have a boiler in the short hood. No doubt X2200S would answer the question, but I got rid of my collection.
So those HEP plants were only for lighting? Not big enough to air-condition cars?
timzHEP to SP passenger trains? Power to do what?
I'll defer to an actual Southern Pacific fan for the full details of exactly what else the extra alternator power was used for. It was discussed in at least one book I read... probably about 50 years ago, and I have no recollection whatsoever what the title or or who the author of that book was.
timz Looks like some (all?) of the original UP streamliners had HEP and steam too https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Union-Pacific-Equip-Diagrams/UP-Streamliner-Passenger-Diagrams/i-v6LKKCN/A
I would suggest getting/borrowing a copy of Kratville's book on UP Streamliners. You are correct in that the early streamliners had both HEP and and steam, but the UP trended to steam heat and axle generator powered A/C just prior to WW2. One interesting factoid from the combined steam/HEP heat was that electric resistance heating was more efficient that steam heat despite the fact that only ~30% of the energy in the fuel being converted into electrical energy.
Main reason for getting away from HEP back then was incompatibility with the rest of the passenger car fleet.
Jeff Erlitz provided the following information for this picture:
I do not believe the LIRR MUs that were converted to Diesel--hauled trail cars had steam lines and radiators. Indeed, my impression was that most of the ping-pongs also had electric heating, and that the LIRR ten-wheelers had oversize generators to provide head-end power. I think this was true of most suburban steam operations, because axle-generators with batteries could not keep up with the frequent stops. In Chicago, I thought this was true of C&NW, but not CB&Q. CRI&P? Milwaukee?
Made an error. CB&Q's Racetrack Scoots also had head-end power. Discussed further in a posting below.
davekleppermy impression was that most of the ping-pongs also had electric heating, and that the LIRR ten-wheelers had oversize generators to provide head-end power.
GE was advertising steam turbine generator sets circa 1920 that would run off the steam heat line. The turbine generator sets would typically be placed in a baggage car or on the tender. IIRC, typical power was 10 - 20KW and intended ony for car lighting and powering fans.
I made an error and corrected it above. My Summer 1952 and my 1967-1970 memories returned, times when i rode the Racetrack Scoots frequently. Head-end power was in use, and special generator cars were attached to every suburban train. The diesel power was in the pool with the long-distance trains.
The Florida East Coast strike brought and end to their part in the East Coast Champion between New Youk and Miami, with the ACL rinning the train over its own line between Jacksonville and Auburndale, and the Seabord there and Miami. Some of FEC's Post-WWII lightweight equipment was sold to the LIRR. So our ERA November parlor-car special had the ex-B&O obs on one end and the FEC on the other. Again, the yard at Montauk Point. Another reader might wish to comment on the large building above. A hotel, I think.
And Happy Hanukah to all who observe that Holiday
daveklepperHead-end power was in use, and special generator cars were attached to every suburban train.
daveklepper Another reader might wish to comment on the large building above.
The building is apparently still in use, known as Montauk Manor: (Wikipedia) Montauk Manor is a historic resort hotel located in the hamlet of Montauk in Suffolk County, New York, on Long Island. It was built in 1926 by Carl G. Fisher and is a three-story, 140 decorated condominium apartments in the Tudor Revival style.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 daveklepper Another reader might wish to comment on the large building above. The building is apparently still in use, known as Montauk Manor: (Wikipedia) Montauk Manor is a historic resort hotel located in the hamlet of Montauk in Suffolk County, New York, on Long Island. It was built in 1926 by Carl G. Fisher and is a three-story, 140 decorated condominium apartments in the Tudor Revival style.
Is that the Fisher of General Motors Fisher Body fame?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDIs that the Fisher of General Motors Fisher Body fame?
Per Wikipedia, no.
While he was involved in the automobile business, including as a dealer, his biggest marks on history were the Lincoln Highway and the Dixie Highway (a portion of which is still called such, at least in Michigan) and real estate in Florida and on Montauk.
But oddly NOT related to Fishers Island, the bane of any plan to build my beloved Orient Point Bridge -- despite its being an enclave of the rich very like what Carl intended for Montauk ('the Miami Beach of the North') and its Pequot name being very suspicious in this context. (It's a South Fork vs. North Fork thing...)
I lived on Long Island 1952-1968. The "ping "pongs" got steam heat from the locomotive either steam or diesel. Electricity was generated by axel driven canvas belts. Occasionally I would find a broken belt along the right of way.
Which raises the question: did LIRR MUs use third-rail DC for heat and light?
timz daveklepper Head-end power was in use, and special generator cars were attached to every suburban train. Not on the steam-powered trains? Just the gallery-car trains?
daveklepper Head-end power was in use, and special generator cars were attached to every suburban train.
Not on the steam-powered trains? Just the gallery-car trains?
That is correct. By the 1960's, there were a few E's equipped with HEP and assigned to suburban service only.
Back in the late Sixties, I belonged to a model railroad club in the New York City area. One year we had a operating session scheduld by chance for April 1. One of the guys showed up with a steam locomotive and passenger cars of ancient vintage, heavily weathered and looking like rolling scrap heaps. They were lettered for the "WRONG ISLAND"
timzWhich raises the question: did LIRR MUs use third-rail DC for heat and light?
Going back to the LIRR. Just like streetcars, jight-rail cars, subway cars, and all other suburban MU-car operations, yes, LIRR MUs always did use third rail power, with motor-generators or inverters and transformers when necessary, and batteries to keerp lights lit over gaps,
My memory has cleared up a bit about the steam and diesel-hauled trains.
The G5 ten wheelers supplied both steam for heat and head-end electric power for lights. The diesels followed this practise also. Error posted earlier corrected here.
In 1969, although some M1s had arrived, conversion of post-WWII Pullman-built MUs to diesel-hauled coaches was still in the future. The photos where T labeled the coaches as converted MUs show nearly identical-bodied trail coaches with steam heat and both-axle-driven genrators and head-end power. Not sure how the original air-conditioning worked. Steram may have been used some way. Any of these cars still in use use head-end power for everything.
Beginning around 1970, the conversion of MUs to traii coahes and the general use of road-switcher diesels led to the conversion of the older cab-type A-unit diesels to cab-and-hotel-power cars, with non-MU head-end power eventually system-wide.
daveklepperThe G5 ten wheelers supplied both steam for heat and head-end electric power for lights. The diesels followed this practise also.
All diesel locomotives generate auxiliary power for use on the locomotive itself. This can be accomplished in several ways, and a separate generator, AC or DC, is one of them Locomotives in suburban service, before head-end heating and air-conditioning, were equipped to provide a greatly increased amount of this same power for passenger-car lighting.
I also remembered something else. The original IC Chicago suburban MUs had both electric heating and fully compatible steam heating, with the idea that they could serve as standby for specials. And some of the trailers actually were used behind the Forneys before the electrification started operating.
The Central's MUs out of Grand Central Terminal were also equipped to handle steam heat. But not the New Haven's.
The Long Island's? Some were. Others lacked the hoses and receptacles, but the body design included it as part of the standard MP-54 - P54 design. Ditto PRR. And the PRR and LI steam-hauled P-54s included the conduit and mounting facilites for coversion to P-54s. The PRR MP-54s with aluminum instead of wood window frames were olnce P-54s.
More at Mineola:
Richard Allman improved on this prervious posting, and I am learning from his work.
Judging from the cars in the parking lot, I'm guessing the pictures were taken around 1970. Note the early 50s Studebaker.
Looking at the Broadway theater posters showed a couple of plays I saw. Man of La Mancha played at the Martin Beck Theater March 1968 thru March 1971. The Play 1776 opened March 1969 and closed February 1972.
ERA Parlor-car fan-trip, November, 1969.
Montauk Staion with the special:
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