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Is Amtrak Crash Nevada’s Fault?

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Posted by John WR on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 8:50 PM

It seems to me the report might have included one more point:  Don't operated trucks with worn out brakes.  

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Posted by narig01 on Thursday, December 20, 2012 2:44 AM

John WR

It seems to me the report might have included one more point:  Don't operated trucks with worn out brakes.  

This is copied from a post elsewhere(passenger column) but my opinion.(until last year I was an OTR driver for 16 years)

Bad brakes?  The report makes it very clear that the tow company backed off the brakes to tow the truck/trailers out. 

          Without that measurement you can not say bad brakes.  If the shoes were worn I think the board would have said something(the board commented on the drums not the shoes).  Also a non working ABS(Anti-lock Brake System) will not cause a brake to fail. It will make it more likely to skid.(ie the brakes will lock up when you apply the brakes)

        Also the board was very specific in the criticism of the on scene investigation in not being able to measure the stroke of the brakes. This is how much the brake cylinders push in brake operation. Without being able to measure the stroke on the brakes it is impossible to accurately determine if the brakes were in adjustment or not.

      If the brake is completely out of adjustment the brake will not engage. And you will not get a skid mark from the affected wheel.  The lack of a skid mark for the affected wheel is something that can be seen. Personally my experience (the 2 times I've found bad slack adjusters) is that when an automatic slack adjuster fails the only way that find the slack adjuster is bad is by making the adjustment manually.

Rgds IGN

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Posted by narig01 on Thursday, December 20, 2012 3:00 AM

One other comment.  The truck being operated was all 2008 equipment and about 3 years old at the time of the wreck. This is fairly new equipment.  

       What I can not understand is why the drums were worn past limits. Also the other item I do not understand is why brake chambers were of different sizes.  On equipment this new one should not have had to replace.

Rgds IGN

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Posted by tree68 on Thursday, December 20, 2012 8:12 AM

narig01

One other comment.  The truck being operated was all 2008 equipment and about 3 years old at the time of the wreck. This is fairly new equipment.  

       What I can not understand is why the drums were worn past limits. Also the other item I do not understand is why brake chambers were of different sizes.  On equipment this new one should not have had to replace.

Rgds IGN

My take is that the report is calling out the trucking company for shoddy maintenance.  It might be possible that they have been replacing brake shoes, but not checking the drums.  It could be, too, that if they have a problem with a brake chamber, they just grab what's available instead of installing the proper replacement.

This all might lead one to the conclusion that they are pushing to get the max out of their equipment - running it hard (and fast) in order to get "one more load" out.  I have no idea of what kind of profile they are driving.  If it's mostly flat, that would suggest to me that they run 'at speed' as much as possible, and heavily use their brakes for slowing, as opposed to slowing more gradually via coasting, engine braking, etc.  Thus the wear on their brakes might well be greater than 'normal.'

Of course, that's all guessing on my part.  We may never know.

LarryWhistling
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, December 20, 2012 9:56 AM

.

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Posted by narig01 on Thursday, December 20, 2012 10:05 AM

Was poking around the web and found this:

http://www.rgj.com/assets/pdf/J7194912921.pdf

Some of the comments on driver history are enlightening.

I'll also remark this, The train was running many hours late that day, and the drivers interviewed stated they had not seen a passenger train at the crossing before. Further it was stated by one driver(of John Davis Trucking) that "often stopped about ½ mile west of the crossing" (there is a siding about 1/2 mile east, I suspect that someone got east/west confused). 

      The number of companies the (driver of the truck) worked for is much more indicative of the companies. I know of many many drivers that went thru a slew of companies before finding someplace that treated them decently. 

Rgds IGN

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Posted by tree68 on Thursday, December 20, 2012 10:25 AM

Iron - My bad in using the term "coast."  What I meant was slowing down by getting off the throttle, downshifting, etc, not an unpowered coasting. 

As you note, time and speed are of the essence when you're getting paid for volume/quantity.  My point was that time spent gradually slowing is time wasted if I can run up to the 'point of no return' then brake hard to make my stop.

Bucyrus - the placement and size of the warning sign take into consideration that a driver will see it some distance before reaching it.  I don't have time to dig through the MUTCD to find that distance.  So your measurements of warning time should be adjusted to include that distance.  It is definitely not at the point the sign is placed.

LarryWhistling
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Posted by John WR on Thursday, December 20, 2012 8:36 PM

tree68
As you note, time and speed are of the essence when you're getting paid for volume/quantity.  My point was that time spent gradually slowing is time wasted if I can run up to the 'point of no return' then brake hard to make my stop.

Except that when you will have to stop anyway stopping time doesn't matter.  You can take 10 minutes to stop and wait another 10 minutes or take 10 seconds to stop and wait 19 minutes and 50 seconds.  Either way you have lost the time.  

Also, while time and speed are important when you are getting paid for moving the most stuff the fastest it is also important to avoid accidents.  

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, December 21, 2012 10:38 AM

Running up to a stop sign and braking hard at the last instant saves time.  But I don’t think that type of driving behavior played a role in this crash.  The NTSB says that bad brakes played a role, but they do not offer any evidence that ties the drum wear with stopping deficiency.   

The driver was traveling at 58 mph, and according to my calculation, he failed to respond for 5.5 seconds, apparently due to distraction. 

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Posted by switch7frg on Sunday, December 23, 2012 10:19 AM

  ~~~~Gremlins seem to be alive and doing well, ( bad things). For awhile they were in the shadows now they are apparent again.  Hopefully the NTSB  will find hte real story, till then it is "dart board theory".     

                                          Respectfully, Cannonball

                                                         Just myMy 2 Cents worth

Y6bs evergreen in my mind

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