http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/18/world/asia/18rail.html?_r=1&hp
One problem, besides corruption, may be that construction was too fast and the concrete ties are shoddy.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Interesting article - thanks for sharing that link. It notes that the scope and extent of the Chinese HSR and "traditional" railroad systems expansion is comparable to the first US transcontinental railroad project. Evidently perhaps also in the other two ways noted above - although those here in the US then figured that out about 145 years ago ! (i.e., Credit Mobilier and the UP's roadbed and track, etc.) There are other insights and comments in the article that are worth further study and comment - maybe later on.
- Paul North.
Couldn't help but notice that despite construction costs in the range of one third to one fourth of US, the high speed network is projected to operate at a deficit for the next 20 years. Do not know if the author meant operating cost only or operating and capital recovery. Makes Credit Mobilier look like the non event it was.
Mac McCulloch
One point stuck out and perhaps you or others with technical expertise could expand on it. That was this:
"A person with ties to the ministry said that the concrete bases for the system’s tracks were so cheaply made, with inadequate use of chemical hardening agents, that trains would be unable to maintain their current speeds of about 217 miles per hour for more than a few years. In as little as five years, lower speeds, possibly below about 186 miles per hour, could be required as the rails become less straight, the expert said. Strong concrete pillars require a large dose of high-quality fly ash, the byproduct of burning coal. But the speed of construction has far exceeded the available supply, according to a 2008 study by a Chinese railway design institute."
Well, this may have something to do with it:
http://transportation.northwestern.edu/docs/2010/2010.05.25.Li_Flyer.pdf
Even a government can't loose billions of dollars (or 人民币) indefinetly. You need to make money (create wealth) not loose money (destroy wealth) or we're going back to subsistance farming and living in huts.
High speed rail in China is a money pit. It's pretty much a money pit everywhere. This guy built a bureaucratic empire of high speed rail that bleeds 人民币. It eventually caught up with him. That he seems to have cut corners to do so didn't help him.
schlimm One point stuck out and perhaps you or others with technical expertise could expand on it. That was this: "A person with ties to the ministry said that the concrete bases for the system’s tracks were so cheaply made, with inadequate use of chemical hardening agents, that trains would be unable to maintain their current speeds of about 217 miles per hour for more than a few years. In as little as five years, lower speeds, possibly below about 186 miles per hour, could be required as the rails become less straight, the expert said.... Yep, Chinese quality and workmanship. Heh, heh. Strong concrete pillars require a large dose of high-quality fly ash, the byproduct of burning coal. But the speed of construction has far exceeded the available supply, according to a 2008 study by a Chinese railway design institute."
"A person with ties to the ministry said that the concrete bases for the system’s tracks were so cheaply made, with inadequate use of chemical hardening agents, that trains would be unable to maintain their current speeds of about 217 miles per hour for more than a few years. In as little as five years, lower speeds, possibly below about 186 miles per hour, could be required as the rails become less straight, the expert said....
Strong concrete pillars require a large dose of high-quality fly ash, the byproduct of burning coal. But the speed of construction has far exceeded the available supply, according to a 2008 study by a Chinese railway design institute."
Wow - Dr. Hongchang Li sure seems to have seen this coming, didn't he ? At least about a year in advance, too ! (The flyer is for a May 25, 2010 presentation while he was on a 6-month sabbatical in Texas, based on previous research.) Reading that summary, it's pretty damning. Wonder how he got away with being a critic of such a high government minister ? That's not how their system is usually thought to work, is it ? Maybe that's why he was in Texas in the 1st place, and why he gave that presentation over here - not over there ? Wonder if there's a recording or transcript available anyplace now ?
Thanks for remembering, retrieving, and posting that. It ought to be grist for a study or review of how the Chinese system works, and the economics (or lack thereof) of High Speed Rail systems.
Over and over, I have heard that China is leading the way with HSR, and that we need to follow their example. Meanwhile critics here contend that HSR would be a boondoggle. How ironic that the HSR trail that China is blazing leads right to the boondoggle that HSR critics here have been warning about.
schlimm One point stuck out and perhaps you or others with technical expertise could expand on it. That was this: "A person with ties to the ministry said that the concrete bases for the system’s tracks were so cheaply made, with inadequate use of chemical hardening agents, that trains would be unable to maintain their current speeds of about 217 miles per hour for more than a few years. In as little as five years, lower speeds, possibly below about 186 miles per hour, could be required as the rails become less straight, the expert said. Strong concrete pillars require a large dose of high-quality fly ash, the byproduct of burning coal. But the speed of construction has far exceeded the available supply, according to a 2008 study by a Chinese railway design institute."
That's all believable, though as always more details, numerical support, and integrating descriptions or explanations would be helpful . . .
Fly ash is a residue from burning coal, and since China is the world's largest user of coal (or close to it), I'd expect them to have enough fly ash. However, since fly ash is usually recovered by using air pollution control equipment of some kind ("baghouses"), and the Chinese are now somewhat infamous for not doing much of that - maybe not so much fly ash is available.
Fly ash is used in concrete in 2 major ways. The first is as a "water-reducing" agent - replacing a fraction of the cement with fly ash instead in the usual cement-sand-gravel-water mix of most concretes enables the concrete mix to be just as flowable or 'runny' with less water. That's a good thing, because more water in concrete evaporates and leaves voids, and also dilutes the cement 'paste', both of which relatively weaken it. The second way is to actually replace a portion of the cement - the fly ash acts in much the same way, it's been discovered. But high-quality concrete can be made without fly ash - and fly ash is not usually referred to as a "chemical hardening agent" as in the quote from the article above.
The first part of the article seems concerned about the concrete ties deteriorating within 5 years. That too is plausible - concrete ties need to have very high quality concrete and well-designed fastenings. Even if the concrete ties don't break or crack, they are prone to abrasion and wearing down unevenly under the rail seat from the motion of the track and rails under traffic - we've had that problem here in the US, too. That allows the rails to flex more vertically and cant or tip outwards under load, as the wear often seems to be asymmetric - more on the outside or 'field' side than on the inside or 'gage' side, which is consistent with the stated concerns about the rails becoming "less straight".
I trust this explanation is responsive to your inquiry - but if not, or even so, feel free to ask any further or follow-up questions.
Paul_D_North_Jr Wow - Dr. Hongchang Li sure seems to have seen this coming, didn't he ? At least about a year in advance, too ! (The flyer is for a May 25, 2010 presentation while he was on a 6-month sabbatical in Texas, based on previous research.) Reading that summary, it's pretty damning. Wonder how he got away with being a critic of such a high government minister ? That's not how their system is usually thought to work, is it ? Maybe that's why he was in Texas in the 1st place, and why he gave that presentation over here - not over there ? Wonder if there's a recording or transcript available anyplace now ? Thanks for remembering, retrieving, and posting that. It ought to be grist for a study or review of how the Chinese system works, and the economics (or lack thereof) of High Speed Rail systems. - Paul North.
If you haven't found it already, here's the presentation.
http://transportation.northwestern.edu/docs/2010/2010.05.25.Li_Presentation.pdf
Paul_D_North_Jr The first part of the article seems concerned about the concrete ties deteriorating within 5 years. That too is plausible - concrete ties need to have very high quality concrete and well-designed fastenings. Even if the concrete ties don't break or crack, they are prone to abrasion and wearing down unevenly under the rail seat from the motion of the track and rails under traffic - we've had that problem here in the US, too. That allows the rails to flex more vertically and cant or tip outwards under load, as the wear often seems to be asymmetric - more on the outside or 'field' side than on the inside or 'gage' side, which is consistent with the stated concerns about the rails becoming "less straight". - Paul North.
If the lines concerned are solely used for HSR then abrasion should be less of an issue, for the Western European countries 17 metric tonnes is the absolute upper limit for axle loading by HSR equipment, good fastenings of course are still required. Where Germany has a big problem on their Hamburg - Berlin ABS the problem was quality control by a former East German company that won the contract awarded to help companies following the reunification, and DB not doing a good enough job of QCof their own. Also the Hamburg - Berlin ABS is very much a mixed traffic railway with significant amounts of coal using portions of the line.
But of course if the Chinese Ties develop cracks during setting, then the rebar will rust and the freeze thaw cycle in parts of China will break the ties down.
greyhounds - Thanks much for that link ! (50 pages/ slides, about 3.8 MB in size) I hadn't looked for it yet - wasn't sure that NWU did that with those presentations - so that is helpful. I look forward to reviewing it more thoroughly over the next couple of days.
beaulieu - Abrasion of concrete ties isn't necessary a result of just the axle loading. I'm not thoroughly familiar with all the possible causes and modes of failure - the research is on-going, too - but it could also be related to such factors as vibration, frequency and 'phases' of the rail and track, a minimal simple deflection/ motion starting a downward spiral of deterioration ==> more motion, sand or ballast between the tie pad and the concrete tie, deterioration of the tie pad allowing more rail motion, etc., etc.
Who knows if the article had it right, but the wording implied the concrete problem was in the concrete slab base and pillars under the concrete ties, not the ties.
The problems in China seem to have more to do with its rampant corruption than anything inherently flawed in the concept of HSR.
Yes, the problem could be in the concrete slab base and pillars (columns) under the ties - but that would not usually cause the rails to go out of alignment, as was also mentioned. Also, that far down in the track structure, the unit stresses - i.e., as in pounds per square inch - are usually much less, and more compressive than in tension, esp. in pillars, so the lack of flyash or any other "chemical hardening agent" would not be as critical.
The current uproar does seem focused on that guy's 'performance' - lack of quality control, perhaps some bribes/ graft, and poor financial planning. If the extent of the corruption was really huge so as to significantly inflate the cost of the HSR construction - say, by 30% or more - then perhaps we could say that the corruption is the major cause of anticipated financial problems of the Chinese HSR. But I don't understand the corruption to be that large, so I think the financial issues are more integral or inherent in the nature of that HSR system, from its configuration, service area, traffic volumes, etc. After skimming (only, so far) through that presentation linked above, I have the sense that the Chinese HSR system is going to have severe financial problems even if the construction ethics were 'lily-white' and the concrete was perfectly proportioned and poured. Time and some more revelations will tell, though . . .
Could be, Paul, but from what I understand about doing business in China, corruption is a large and inherent part of the system. It is only when it is particularly egregious that a minister/party hack gets nailed and often executed, supposedly as an "example" to others, but more as a scapegoat to keep the public from arising in fury.
You know what really got him canned? HIS bosses are all steam freaks! And with Chinese steam disappearing, well, what can we say?
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