Protected Track?

[Railfan1]

While 'net surfing, I came across this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVbrPz0H8AA&feature=related 

No one seems to know why the train stopped going up the grade which made me take a closer look. The train sounds like it goes into emergency at the 39 sec. mark. At about the 47 sec. mark, there is a red and white striped sign located between the tracks, and a MOW truck. What does the sign mean? Is it a method of indicating MOW work and "protecting" the track? Was there a communications break down somewhere?

Thanks

[CShaveRR]

The sign in the video is a conditional stop sign (the equivalent of a Form B red board on UP). It requires a train to stop unless informed (either via radio or in person) that the track ahead is clear.

There are any number of possible scenarios there. On UP, we have such signals to the right of each affected track. If that's also the case on NS, this signal didn't govern that train (of course, another such sign could have been to the right of the train, and we couldn't see it in the video).

However, this sign should have been preceded (no more than 1.5 miles away) by an "approach prepared to stop sign". From the way the train was proceeding, I'd suggest that said sign was not seen by the crew, if in fact this sign pertained to them. There's no way he was prepared to stop (and that would be easy to do on an upgrade). If they'd seen an approach sign pertaining to their train, they should have been in communication with the employee in charge.

Now I noticed that the truck backed down beyond the sign--also probably not a good idea, under normal circumstances.

It would have been great to hear what actually went on via scanner. But I suspect that the train going into emergency was purely an operational malfunction, and the location just past the stop board was just a coincidence. They were proceeding in a way that suggested (if all rules were being followed) that they had been cleared past the stop sign. The truck backed past the sign (presumably on the road that replaced the torn-out track) either to assist with finding what stopped the train or to transport the conductor back so he could check out the problem. Note that it was soon after the truck returned that the train started up again.

If I'm right, the videographer saw the railroad operating like it was supposed to, keeping the trains rolling efficiently.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Cynic that I am, I'm wondering if the crew became preoccupied and distracted with tooting the horn at the crowd in the viewing area at the Curve . . . and forgot about the prior sign as Carl mentions or a bulletin or radio order about it, etc.

But to absolve thetrain crew, note that the boom truck - and yes, it's on the 'Ho Chi Minh' trail of the track removed in the mid-1980's - was parked right at the sign. And when this train got underway again, as soon as the tail end passed the truck started following it upgrade.

What's not obvious is that only a mile or so upgrade from here is MG Tower and a 'universal' set of cross-overs between all 3 tracks. And note that the sign is right at the MP 242 at the west side of the Curve. So I'm wondering if something unexpected happened - anything from a broken rail found by an inspector, to a switch malfunctioning, or some MOW equipment derailed and fouled another main, etc. - after this train left ALTO, and the sometimes squirrelly radio communications in this area from the mountains, etc. made it impossible for either the MOW people to reach the DS - or the DS didn't answer because he was busy with other traffic - and/ or for the DS to then contact the train by radio. So the MOW foreman did the prudent thing and sent the boom truck down the mountain on the access road with instructions to place the sign and in effect 'flag down' any oncoming trains at MP 242 - and that's what we saw happening. Once that occurred, the boom truck could rejoin the rest of the gang.

Just speculation on my part, and not very informed, either. But there you go - for what it's worth.

- Paul North.

[zugmann]

I'm just going to throw out my WAG (wild ahhh...guess). 

 Sign looks to be on the wrong side of the track - usually it's on the right side.  Now maybe there was another sign on the other side of the track, but I can't tell from the video.    But with the curve, maybe they thought the sign was for their track and went with the safest course (dumping it). 

 

The fact that no white SUVs showed up, and no recrews either, leads me to believe that everyone stayed in service. 

 

Or it could have been any number of mechanical reasons... who knows. 

[wabash1]

zugman I was thinking same thing in that the sign was in wrong place for that train, but the other rule violation was the train that went the other way when that train was not inspected after a emergency application. But then again if i was in emergency right or wrong i wouldnt want it broadcasted either.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

A further thought - it's morning, and maybe the MOW crew had properly obtained "Track and Time" for their work that day from the DS, starting at a certain hour - perhaps it was supposed to be after this train had passed. So the MOW foreman sent his guy down to place the sign, but maybe before the start of the allotted time, so as to maximize the useful amount of time onCe his possession started. Or, maybe this train was delayed in coming up the hill - note, no helpers - and was supposed to have passed by then, so it wasn't notified of the Track and Time restriction because the DS thought it would have passed by then. In any event, the crew came around the Curve and found a sign that they weren't expecting. "When in doubt, the safe course must be taken" = stop the train ASAP. Maybe a 'false alarm' and an unnecessary stop, but the prudent thing to do, and in accordance with the doctrine. I'd be OK with that.

- Paul North.

[CShaveRR]

Zug--nice theory! Makes sense.

And Wabash, I was wondering why the downbound train didn't stop, either--whether the emergency stop was initiated by the crew or by other forces shouldn't make a difference. That's actually an argument in favor of something fishy going on--the emergency stop wasn't broadcast. At least the downbound train had a good view of the stopped train, what with a track and a "trail" separating them.

Any significance to the locomotives dropping to idle just before it went into emergency?

[kolechovski]

I didn't get to see the video (this computer won't show youtube videos).  The train that went into emergency...was it ECP?  Usually, you can tell if the "poosh" is uniform or not.  Maybe that might also play a role, especially with the loco idling right before application-could've been a mechanical issue there.

As for the signs, are those like the red ones we see on the Rochelle Webcam, like when that MOW gang did the work last week?  There were signs on both sides of the track close to the camera.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Highly unlikely it was ECP.  It's a a double-stack intermodal, but most of the cars/ platforms/ wells are loaded only 1-high, with a few empties and a few 2-high - pretty short, too, unless some of it was edited out to meet the YouTube video length maximum limit of 10 minutes, per the photographer. 

One other thought, more for background/ context than about what we see here in the video:  When I was there at the Curve about a month later - the video says it was from July 2009 - a replacement cantilever had been erected right next to the old black PRR signal bridge on the east side of the Curve, which had not yet been done there in this video.  Perhaps the boom truck and the conditional stop sign were related to similar work being done at the MG interlocking about a mile upgrade, which also has a signal bridge or two on its approaches ? 

- Paul North.   

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Somewhat related, and this audience seems to be a reliable source, IMHO:

I've been advised a couple times in the past few weeks that I should - as in, there's a need for - become qualified to provide/ teach/ present the required FRA Part 214 Roadway Worker Safety Training, especially for outside/ independent contractors who are doing work on railroad R-O-W.

Anybody here have any useful insights or thoughts on that ?

Thanks in advance for your responses.

- Paul North. 

[wabash1]

Paul_D_North_Jr

A further thought - it's morning, and maybe the MOW crew had properly obtained "Track and Time" for their work that day from the DS, starting at a certain hour - perhaps it was supposed to be after this train had passed. So the MOW foreman sent his guy down to place the sign, but maybe before the start of the allotted time, so as to maximize the useful amount of time onCe his possession started. Or, maybe this train was delayed in coming up the hill - note, no helpers - and was supposed to have passed by then, so it wasn't notified of the Track and Time restriction because the DS thought it would have passed by then. In any event, the crew came around the Curve and found a sign that they weren't expecting. "When in doubt, the safe course must be taken" = stop the train ASAP. Maybe a 'false alarm' and an unnecessary stop, but the prudent thing to do, and in accordance with the doctrine. I'd be OK with that.

- Paul North.

Paul makes no differance if the time in effect is 930a and that train is going by at 9a the signs are erected and your bullitin will tell you when in effect and who to contact. that is a old NS sign but we dont use them anymore .( at least on the 400 miles im qualified on)

What it seems to me is they forgot something was there and when noticed he dropped the throttle and then shot the brakes, hence engine wont go to idle if train seperation for up to 20 sec but if you dump them it drops to idle NOW.

But not being there its just my 2 pennies

[kolechovski]

Can you still bail off the locos' air during emergency applications?

[ValleyX]

kolechovski

Can you still bail off the locos' air during emergency applications?

 

Yes. 

[wabash1]

ValleyX

kolechovski

Can you still bail off the locos' air during emergency applications?

 

Yes. 

And in some cases you better.

[kolechovski]

I was going to write something else, but I guess it would be tough to decide in each case whether or not to bail off the air.  If you do, the train will go farther before stopping (partially negating the main reason for EMG appllication), but it will help reduce the chances of a derailment.  Decisions, decisions...

Wabash, as an experienced engineer (and any others who have input), in which cases (other than obvious ones where you need all stoppage you can get, like near head-ons) would you decide to use the bailoff?

[ValleyX]

 When you have a emergency brake application with the train bunched, say, while using dynamic braking, you bail the independent but let it build up gradually as the dynamic cuts out after 20 seconds.  You want to keep the train bunched and avoid a big run-out.  You can apply the independent gradually, if you don't bail the independent, it will set up to its maximum setting and there is more danger of jackknifing the train.

You have to bail the independent when in emergency when the train is stretched, you don't want to slide the wheels if you can avoid it and create flat spots and tread build-up. Also, because the power still loads for 20 seconds, you go through reducing the throttle to a safe level, sort of like when stretch braking but the idea is to try to avoid a break-in-two.

Going into emergency is always a surprise and you're suddenly forced into an unexpected plan.  I believe only experience is the best teacher to help an engineer to avoid making a train in emergency situation worse. 

[wabash1]

What Valley X said but with 1 addition, I allways bail then if in dynamic and the pcs cuts out go to 20-25 pounds of independant til stopped then apply full. if stretched bail til stopped. you dont really use the engine for stopping. and if your in emergency because your about to have a head on with another train, you wasnt doing your job and 2 i dont care about the brakes im jumping.

[ValleyX]

 Exactly, Wabash, that's the thing to do, I probably wasn't clear enough or didn't explain it far enough.  I didn't comment on the head-on because I'm with you, joining the birds.

[kolechovski]

Wabash, remember that multiple people can make errors that put you on a head-on course, or some other gonna-collide situation.  It sucks that, by being human, each person can suffer human error.  Dispatchers have accidentally put train crews on the wrong track.  Some crews have mixed up switches, or forgotten to realing them properly (the next crew to come through is the one who pays the price), etc.  You can't say that just because there's about to be a potential wreck or derailment, that you weren't doing your job and deserve to die.

Second, bailing out too early ain't any better.  If it looks like you might stop in time (or even collide at low speed and have enough time to run to last engine), you mgiht be better off not jumping.  Even at pretty low speeds, it doesn't take much for puny human bodies to be ripped apart by momentum and rough terrain.  If you're doing high speed, and a collision is inevitable, unless you have some large form of water below you that you think you can somehow survive (good luck), jumping guarantees death, where you might have some chance of surviving the wreck in the rear unit.

[wabash1]

kolechovski

Wabash, remember that multiple people can make errors that put you on a head-on course, or some other gonna-collide situation.  It sucks that, by being human, each person can suffer human error.  Dispatchers have accidentally put train crews on the wrong track.  Some crews have mixed up switches, or forgotten to realing them properly (the next crew to come through is the one who pays the price), etc.  You can't say that just because there's about to be a potential wreck or derailment, that you weren't doing your job and deserve to die.

Second, bailing out too early ain't any better.  If it looks like you might stop in time (or even collide at low speed and have enough time to run to last engine), you mgiht be better off not jumping.  Even at pretty low speeds, it doesn't take much for puny human bodies to be ripped apart by momentum and rough terrain.  If you're doing high speed, and a collision is inevitable, unless you have some large form of water below you that you think you can somehow survive (good luck), jumping guarantees death, where you might have some chance of surviving the wreck in the rear unit.

Thanks for your insight but if its ok  with you ( even if its not ok with you ) Im jumping when i want to, Oh and im still alive so death isnt guaranteed nor the other 5 guys i personally.know didnt die.

[ValleyX]

 Newer power is a lot more collision-worthy than the old power was, a lot more steel there and collision posts, anti-riders, etc.  It would depend, I guess, one would react to the moment, regardless of what we post here now. 

 I knew a man who dismounted a NKP Berk at speed and lived but it took him a year to heal.  Knew another who bailed from another NKP Berk and never worked another trip, it was also a mistake for him to bail out, as it turned out.   Knew a guy who bailed when about to collide with a concrete mixer, landed in a pile of new ties.  He did come back to work and retired eventually. 

I don't know that I would vote for the rear unit as an option, for one thing, you've got to have time to get there (might as well bail) and for another, the train behind it is possibly going to come right up on top of it.