Forgive me, as a new forum member, for bringing up what is no doubt an old topic: Illinois Central RR. But, with a considerable ancestral history with that road in Mississippi, I would be pleased to share some information, gain some information and perhaps old photographic images, and obtain some advice regarding some of my research. For a while, I was a member of the Illinois Central Historical Society, which was a worthy organization of modest value to me, but seemingly more focused on latter-day ICRR in the state of Illinois. I am more interested in the ICRR in and around McComb MS pre-1945.
Thanks in advance for any contact (reply) from a like-minded ICRR devotee.
Well, IF no one else has said it welcome to this Forum!
You might take some time and utilize the 'Search Community' on the right side of the pages in this Forum it is a very useful historical search tool.
I just entered the ICRR in the window and pulled up a listed 52 responses.
Several Forum posters here have roots in and around the IC RR, either havinging grown up in communities along the IC or working for the IC, and generally railfaning things IC.
The Internet, as well is a teriffic resource for things related to railroads. I am constantly amazed at things I have found there that have lead to further researching efforts.
Welcome! Have you checked this website http://www.rr-fallenflags.org ?
Happy hunting.
Thank you, "samfp1943", for your kind welcome and suggestions. Yes, I did (and do) use the search function, on "ICRR," "Illinois Central", and "McComb," with no immediately apparent relevant hits, albeit interesting Illinois Central text nonetheless. As said originally, most posts refer to post-War ICRR and especially in IL, no disrespect intended, of course.
There were a few mentions about the McComb Railroad Museum, to which I was pleased to make a donation a few years back during its restoration, in behalf of my ancestors. Am sorry to learn that its "plaque" was stolen, as reported.
Yes, the Internet (including such forums as this and those re: genealogy) have been truly a valuable resource, which I have searched, perused, and employed liberally.
It is just my hope that there might be other ICRR amateur "historians," primarily of and in MS, or at least acquainted with the ICRR there, with whom I might share some information, either on this forum or privately.
Thanks again for your welcome and response.
Thank you for your valued reply, "bedell."
Yes, I was aware of that fallen flags website, though not checked it much before. Did so just now re: ICRR and found lots of interesting stuff, especially photos, which I need to more carefully peruse this evening. Quick examination reveals, as said before, considerable and primarily IL content, which (of course) is not surprising.
Thanks again!
What it sounds like you might be able to make with this information are some articles in both Trains and Classic Trains.
Andrew
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
Would the Holly Springs MS person who sent me an email message in response to my original post, please re-send via "Contact." Inadvertently, I deleted your email message from my computer before entirely awakening this morning. Thank you.
You may also want to check out the "CLASSIC TRAINS" forums on Trains.com as the discussions there are exclusively about RR history (although there are certainly many historical discussions on this forum as well)..
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
Yes, I have just yesterday done that, by posting on the CLASSIC TRAINS General Discussion forum, with thread entitled "McComb MS and Gloster MS." Thank you for your suggestion.
travelingengineerI am more interested in the ICRR in and around McComb MS pre-1945.
When you say "pre-1945," how far back do you want to go?
Thank you for your kind reply,"Bacyrus." With regard to my interest in the ICRR in McComb (City) MS, my paternal grandfather was a Machinist Helper (1901) > Fireman (1903) > Locomotive Engineer (1907) > Traveling Engineer on Canton & Yazoo District (1927-1945). His father- and brothers-in-law were all employees at the ICRR shops in McComb. Whereas I have already published what I know of all of their lives, there must still be extant information out there which could add "life and times" to their stories.
For example, I would dearly know of the locomotives, trains, and routes on which he actually served, and (of course) discover photographs of him personally on trains, in railroading attire, etc.
One incident in the life of that paternal grandfather was his investigation (now as Traveling Engineer) of a transverse fissure that was the cause of an accident "on the main line of the Illinois Central between Jackson and Canton," about seven miles south of Canton. I have a newspaper photo of him at that site, but no date, though one might assume it was published in the Jackson Clarion-Ledger. Would be pleased to hereafter attach a transcription (or even PDF scan) of that clipping, should you (or others) be able to identify date.
Thank you so much for any interest that you, or others, might be able to provide. (I also have a similar post on the CLASSIC TRAINS General Discussion forum, that also seeks information about the Y&MV in Gloster MS in the 1880s.)
Check with this organization if you have not done so:
http://rlhs.org/
Also, the DeGolyer Library has extensive railroad photo collections:
http://smu.edu/cul/degolyer/
It might be worth posting an inquiry here:
http://www.railroadforums.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=45
Or here:
http://www.rypn.org/
One thing that I have done is place an ad in local newspapers asking people if they have any old photographs of railroad subjects. I have even offered a cash payment in the ad such as “up to $100.” This gets peoples’ attention and motivates them to respond. The response has always been spotty, but almost every ad has yielded something. Generally, I would conclude that there are a lot of old photos in people’s attics, and if you are determined, you can find almost anything you are looking for.
Another approach is to just go into small towns and ask around about who might have some old photographs. I have not done as much of that, but it may be more effective generally than running ads unless you keep repeating the ads.
The purview of Classic Trains magazine is a rather narrow timeframe roughly from 1930-1960, but not earlier. The purview of Trains magazine is the entire history of railroading from the beginning to the present, however, within that purview, they guide their content according to public response to polls about their reader’s preferences for timeframes. Preference for pre-1900 is 2% or less. The majority of preference is either the present or the modern steam age. However, in reading Trains magazine today, I would not realize that they are focused on anything but the immediate present and the future.
There are many historical societies dedicated to individual railroads, but many of those seem more focused on the modern end of the historical perspective from which they can showcase the aesthetics of modern photography in their magazine, rather than publishing imperfect photography for informational revelations of the earlier periods. They might have such older material in their archives, however. It sounds like you have checked the one that covers the IC. One thing to keep in mind is that some of the very old photography is VERY high quality if it is on glass plate negatives. It is not color, but the contrast and detail resolution can be far greater than much of the best color photography being produced today.
The other best resource for information of the early period are the old newspapers. Many of these are on microfilm. If you methodically look through them, you might find some of the things you are looking for. You will most likely find many interesting things that you were not looking for, but many of these discoveries will lead to further explorations. Some of these old papers have been scanned and placed online with a searchable database, but the search engines can sometimes leave something to be desired in terms of performance. If you spend all day reading newspapers on microfilm, you will start to feel like you are living in that time period.
One other resource you might try to find is a collection of the Railroad Gazette, which was published in the early era. Some libraries have it in their collections. It has massive amounts of information, including illustrations and photographs. It has articles and running monthly tabulations of train wrecks. These wrecks can be historical footprints that you can follow and cross-reference into the old newspapers. The wreck coverage puts the entire railroad operation directly into the spotlight for that moment in time. And it can reveal amazingly intimate details of train operation and the people involved with it.
Thanks, "Bacyrus," for the relevant website URLs and other embedded recommendations (some of which I have already explored and used in prior research), and also your candid observations regarding the usual time period for CLASSIC TRAINS and TRAINS magazines and forums. Nonetheless, in my never-ending search for assistance, I thought to try these forums. (The quite fine IC Historical Society Green Diamond magazine RPO yielded no responses.)
The aforementioned ICRR wreck south of Canton MS is of immediate interest, since I have been frustratingly unable to date the clipping (even from examination of the clipping verso) and thus the wreck. I am sure that there is a microfilmed file of The Clarion-Ledger of Jackson MS somewhere (MS Dept of Archives and History, for example), but it would be far more expedient if some kind soul in MS might assist me in situ in Jackson. Perhaps, as you say, the date of the wreck could be ascertained from other wreck sources, such as your mentioned Railroad Gazette.
travelingengineerThe aforementioned ICRR wreck south of Canton MS is of immediate interest, since I have been frustratingly unable to date the clipping (even from examination of the clipping verso) and thus the wreck. I am sure that there is a microfilmed file of The Clarion-Ledger of Jackson MS somewhere (MS Dept of Archives and History, for example), but it would be far more expedient if some kind soul in MS might assist me in situ in Jackson. Perhaps, as you say, the date of the wreck could be ascertained from other wreck sources, such as your mentioned Railroad Gazette.
ICC Accident Reports from the period 1911 through the end of ICC investigations in 1993 are on online here.
ICC Accident Reports
Looking through the likely years, late 30s to 1945, I find one possibility although not in the right location. On November 23rd, 1941 IC Passenger train #10 derailed on the Birmingham District near Corinth, MS due to a broken rail caused by a Transverse fissure. Three people were killed and 113 were injured.
IC Corinth, MS derailment report
How very kind of you, "Beaulieu," to do some investigative work re: the previously mentioned ICRR train wreck near Canton MS. (Thanks for the website URL.) The time frame seems quite plausible, as my clipping photo of my paternal grandfather would appear to show his appearance in the early 1940s. As you say, I'm also not sure of the Corinth location. But, since you are probably more RR savy than I am, perhaps there are details in the newspaper report that might assist.
Can you please tell me how to attach the PDF scan of my transcription of that clipping to a forum reply? The transcription gives rather precise details on the train itself, names the fireman, etc. Then, I shall immediately send to you. I also have the newspaper photos, one of which shows the ICRR wrecker number.
If this forum does not permit PDF attachments, perhaps you would give me your email address, and I could attach to a direct email. Thanks in advance.
At Google Books, "History of the Illinois Central Railroad Company and Representative Employes" (1900) has short biographies of hundreds of people.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Ggk7AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA5
Google Books search results for Illinois Central McComb. Perhaps if you add the last name of your grandfather or great-grandfather to the search box something relevant will turn up.
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22illinois%20central%22%20mccomb&hl=en&tbo=s&tbs=bks:1,bkv:p&sa=X&ei=_60MTPXdJMT48Aauw6ntCw&ved=0CBYQpwU
Mike
Thank you, "wanswheel," for your valued research suggestions. The Google search criteria, of course, turned up an exhaustive collection of hits re: McComb (City) MS, because the location truly was a southern center of ICRR activity, with its magnificent shop complex (now fallen into ruins).
Your Google Books search discovery, History of the Illinois Central Railroad Company and Represented Employe[e]s was previously unknown to me. The digitization of such valued printed materials is fast introducing old works more into the public domain. There turned out to be two very distant relatives named in this volume, both of whom I was somewhat aware.
P. S. In reponse to the kind person that just suggested that I contact the Illinois Central Historical Society: Yes, I was a member for several years. It is a worthy organization, with a fine publication, the Green Diamond. However, I was not able to elicit any assistance via my RPO query therein. Thanks anyway.
Travelingengineer:
Linked here is a website for the Casey Jones Museum in Water Valley, Miss. (Formerly a division Point South of Memphis on the ICRR .
http://www.watervalley.net/users/caseyjones/home.htm
There was at one time a commemorative museum in Vaughan, Niss ( site of Casey's famous wreck). I had suffered neglect and over time had fallen into disrepair and was eventually closed and moved. All that I think that remains at Vaughan is a Miss. State Historical Placque that commemorates the event.
Linked here, Casey Jones Village and Museum:
http://ntl1.specialcollection.net/scripts/ws.dll?websearch&site=dot_railroads
Jackson,Tn area about at the junction of I-40 and US 45. It is an Interstate Tourist magnet business. Railroad related artifacts, a house reputed to be the C. Jones home in Jackson, Tn (IIRC). and a cosmetically enhanced IC locomotive #344 (#342 was wrecked at Vaughan,Ms). Worth a stop if passing by, but not for a special trip to visit.
I also thought of the Casy Jones Museum as a resource, since that happened in the right time frame and vicinity.
You've gotten some excellent suggestions so far. A few more that I can add, if you haven't already checked them out :
- City Historical Society
- County Historical Society
- State Historical Office and Archives
- State Railroad or Industrial Museum, if any
- "Images of America" booklet series by Arcadia Publishing - see http://www.arcadiapublishing.com/
They appear to have at least one on Jackson, as well as Natchez, Vicksburg, and Clinton, plus several on selected Counties - Marshall, Copiah, and Oktibbeha, etc.
Your reelatives might also be mentioned in the annual proceedings or reports of their respective professional societies or organizations, though I confess I have no idea of what the titles of same might be.
Good luck with your search.
- Paul North.
Thank you for your kind reply, Mr. North. Yes, your recommended sources were generally those that I have heretofore consulted, though you may inspire me to dig a little deeper.
Arcadia Publishing does have some quite good and relevant publications, one of which I have already purchased and used, to wit:
Wynelle Scott Deese, Musing through Towns in Mississippi (Charleston, South Carolina: Arcadia Publishing, 1999)
The Mississippi Department of Archives and History also has considerable material, especially in its postcard collection. (Old postcards generally are a good source of railroad images, as I am sure you know.) Also, I have used early articles from the ICRR archived publications, especially from its Illinois Central Magazine.
As you may have ascertained, the previously-mentioned south-of-Canton passenger train wreck, due to transverse fissure, is of my immediate interest. In re-reading my newspaper clipping, I note that the subject train was the "crack northbound No. 2, operating between New Orleans and Chicago." In the period of 1927-1945, would this be the City of New Orleans or the Panama Limited?
And, does the attending wrecker "I.C.R.R. / X89" (in the associated photo) mean anything to you or others, especially when it might have been in service within that Canton MS district?
Try this link to a site of many things Illinois Central:
http://www.illinoiscentral.net/
This website should be an interesting gateway to many things ICRR.
The site owner Mr. Tom Parker offers this eclectic resource,
Tom's Closet: http://www.illinoiscentral.net/TomsCloset.html
1959 ICRR {assenger Schedule [Chicil-NOLA];
http://www.illinoiscentral.net/TimeTable1958.htm
Happy Hunting!
Regards,
Regarding IC's No. 2, I don't have any personal knowledge or documents that I can recall that would confirm or illuminate that - sorry. There are some others here who have better knowledge of that area and operations - Johnny Degges/ "Deggesty" comes to mind, and he may have an Official Guide from back in that time frame which might provide some insight. I believe he and his wife are on an extended Amtrak trip right now, so you may want to wait a couple of weeks for him to get caught up, and/ or send him a 'Private Message" with your questions.
Likewise, the significance of the X-89 is unknown to me.
Good luck with your research - it's always fun, and especially when there's a family connection.
Thanks for the link to fallen flags, I was able to find lots of Frisco pics on there. I knew about the official Frisco website, but didn't know about this one.
I remember riding the IC through McComb, MS in the late 1950's on our way to New Orleans.
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