I always kept my track charts with me.
Were they in your lap?
.
zardoz I always kept my track charts with me. As I operated on over 600 miles of track on 3 different subdivisions, some of which I wouldn't see for months (or years) at a time, I found the track charts (and the notes I added to them) to be an invaluable resourse when operating in less-than-ideal conditions.
I always kept my track charts with me. As I operated on over 600 miles of track on 3 different subdivisions, some of which I wouldn't see for months (or years) at a time, I found the track charts (and the notes I added to them) to be an invaluable resourse when operating in less-than-ideal conditions.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDzardoz I always kept my track charts with me. As I operated on over 600 miles of track on 3 different subdivisions, some of which I wouldn't see for months (or years) at a time, I found the track charts (and the notes I added to them) to be an invaluable resourse when operating in less-than-ideal conditions. With the current FRA regulations, I believe if you have not operated over a territory within one year....you are no longer qualified.
Once qualified your always qualified but if you have not been over a area for a year you haft to make a run to become current. The differance is to become qaulified the road foarman rides with you to become current just haft to run again with a current engineer. big differance.
Not quite the way they do it here, Wabash, if you've lost your qualification, meaning over a year, it's up to the RFE's discretion and if it's very much over a year, you're going to make review trips. No question about it.
In the Windy City, it's only six months for our company, anyway, if you've not been there in six months, you're no longer qualified.
Track charts will only get you so far.
Zardoz has it right when running in fog and knowing his railroad. I have been in the same position as him only as head brakeman. I had to call every signal mile post whistle post and anything else I thought would help. We operated at track speed the whole time.
A good hogger and a good conductor knows every inch of his railroad. Back in the day of a caboose a conductor could look out the window and know when the slack would run in or out.
Back when I railroaded and ran the job I would know what work we had to do and make a plan and tell the engineer what I wanted to do. Most of the men I worked with back then knew their job and got the work done safely no matter what the weather. It's not a job for sissy's.
ValleyX Not quite the way they do it here, Wabash, if you've lost your qualification, meaning over a year, it's up to the RFE's discretion and if it's very much over a year, you're going to make review trips. No question about it. In the Windy City, it's only six months for our company, anyway, if you've not been there in six months, you're no longer qualified. Track charts will only get you so far.
Valley long time no see, I Know for a fact that anywhere on the NS that to be current all you haft to do is ride with a engineer that is current and this satisfies the FRA. To prove the point to bid a job you haft to be qualified to bid it in and if its been a year since last on the trackage and they cut back and your forced to that job and are not current they haft to ride with you and pay you also, If your going to go to a section your not current on you must do it on your own time.
But trust me once qaulified always qualified, you may not be current being qaulified mean you have the right to run that trackage, you just haft to be current. and to qualify on other trackage never ran on is up to the descretion of the roadforman and local agreements. on the new trackage comming up i will qualify on it so i have more options to change and not get boared. staying current is sometimes a pain.
Paul_D_North_JrJeff, that story about the cut-down tree was in Trains within the past couple of years, I believe. And the ''On a Fog-Bound Night'' story seems familiar to me, too, but I haven't seen it recently in my very small collection of Railroad Magazine, so I may have seen it elsewhere. I know it's not in Treasury of Railroad Folkore.
Maybe so, Paul; I would have to pull those issues down. I did tell of the engineer whose sunflower was cut down, a while back, on a Humor Thread. I have also told of a Greyhound driver who used a tall hedge at the corner of our property to warn him to make a right angle turn (complete with two fixed flashing lights) on a highway in my home town, and when one of my brothers pruned the hedge way back, the driver started up the alley that ran by our house.
As to knowing the road, if you have not read Mark Twain's Life on the Mississippi, you should, especially the section in which he tells of his trials in learning the river--he had to learn the shape of the river (which constantly changed) by daylight and by night. At least, the riverboat pilots had the prerogative of telling the captain that they would tie up when the pilot felt it was too dangerous for the boat to continue.
Johnny
I hope everybody will take a deep breath and have a little patience as we work through this matter of fog.
Bucyrus I hope everybody will take a deep breath and have a little patience as we work through this matter of fog.
What ya say i couldnt read it cause it was to foggy. Hmmm did you hear something??
When I asked for the exact definition of “knowing the road,” I got some good responses here. As has been pointed out, the definition is clear and simple. If an engineer knows where he is at on the railroad, he will be able to state the location in relation to however many other landmarks it takes to define his location. With the accumulation of some familiarity, an engineer should be able to know the road on a continuous, un-interrupted basis as he travels down the line day or night.
The unanswered question is how much the engineer knows about his location in a fog that obscures vision. With this question, it depends on how thick the fog is. It has been suggested here by others that an engineer can run in zero-visibility fog because he is capable of knowing the road by senses other than sight. Of this, I am quite skeptical. Knowing the road without eyesight would be far, far more difficult than knowing the road by the use of eyesight. If the engineer does not know where he is at, all the other rules and instructions break down, leaving the train running wild as they say.
So when I asked for the definition of knowing the road, here is the question I should have asked instead:
Considering that knowing the road without the use of eyesight would require almost superhuman skills, and considering that a failure to know the road even on an intermittent basis in zero-visibility fog would be a serious breach of safety; how does the railroad company know that an engineer knows the road well enough to know where he is at in zero-visibility fog?
It seems to me that the company would have to test the ability of engineers to know where they are at in dense fog. An official would have to ride with the engineer, have the engineer blindfolded, and ask the engineer to describe the location at certain intervals. The engineer would have to respond by giving sufficient landmarks to identify the location well enough to comply with the rules and instructions pertinent to that location.
VS TV which televises the Indy Racing League Indy car races has a segment in their pre-race show where a driver(s) is blindfolded, given a decent size print out of a track map and a Sharpie and told to draw and explain two laps of the track with the Sharpie. Some, while describing the tracks turns and their actions accurately, are widely inaccurate with the drawing....some are almost dead nuts on track in both the description of the how they drive the track and drawing it as they do the verbal explanation.
There are many more inputs that go into a engineer know where he is on the railroad than just sight. Sounds and train slack action are just two of the peripheral senses that engineers use....the whine of a cooling fan at a factory, the sensations of crossing through crossovers at a control point, the sensation of crossing over a switch at a industry, slack runs in at A and runs out a B. Passing the operating crossing protection at Crossing A means that Crossing B is a minute and 10 seconds away.
Operating heavy trains over the same territory, day after day after day, is not a totally visual action. Most actions are formulaic in what is done and where and how it is done. Notch the power on the train up from idle to run 8, have a speed of 43-45 MPH at Road crossing A, continue in Run 8 and get 60 MPH when you feel the slack stretch out of the train as you pass the switch for Industry Z, watch speed decrease to 36 MPH has you climb the grade to control point Q....having passed a Clear distant signal to Q you know you will not be taking a diverging move, continue in Run 8, two miles past Q starts a 'roller coaster' segment for two miles....continue in Run 8 but set a 10 pound brake application to hold the slack as steady as possible as the train negotiates the peaks and valleys of the roller coaster segment...if slack isn't controlled it's unchecked in & out movement will break a knuckle somewhere in the train. The EOT has cleared the roller coaster, release the brakes and let the slack run in as you are pushed down the 0.2% grade toward Control Point N, speed will increase to 50 MPH when the distant signal for N comes in view and indicate that a diverging route will be operated at N, the switches at N are 25 MPH....place locomotives in dynamic braking and increase dynamic braking levels to bring train down to 25 MPH in the 3 miles you have between the distant signal and N, When you go through N, note the distance value on you HTD so you know when you EOT has cleared the 25 MPH switches at N and you can notch out and resume track speed...as you notch out to regain track speed, you pass a Intermediate signal that displays a Advance Approach indication, you have 3 miles to the next signal which will be anticipated to have an Approach indication, upon seeing the Approach indication actions are taken to have the train prepared to stop at the next signal if it is an absolute signal or stop withing 1/2 the range of vision if the next signal is a intermediate and displays a Restricting indication....when you are operating on the Restricting indication you must control the speed of the train to be able to stop within 1/2 the range of vision.
The sounds and train handling clues to the opeation over a territory are never ending.
Bucyrus When I asked for the exact definition of “knowing the road,” I got some good responses here. As has been pointed out, the definition is clear and simple. If an engineer knows where he is at on the railroad, he will be able to state the location in relation to however many other landmarks it takes to define his location. With the accumulation of some familiarity, an engineer should be able to know the road on a continuous, un-interrupted basis as he travels down the line day or night. The unanswered question is how much the engineer knows about his location in a fog that obscures vision. With this question, it depends on how thick the fog is. It has been suggested here by others that an engineer can run in zero-visibility fog because he is capable of knowing the road by senses other than sight. Of this, I am quite skeptical. Knowing the road without eyesight would be far, far more difficult than knowing the road by the use of eyesight. If the engineer does not know where he is at, all the other rules and instructions break down, leaving the train running wild as they say. So when I asked for the definition of knowing the road, here is the question I should have asked instead: Considering that knowing the road without the use of eyesight would require almost superhuman skills, and considering that a failure to know the road even on an intermittent basis in zero-visibility fog would be a serious breach of safety; how does the railroad company know that an engineer knows the road well enough to know where he is at in zero-visibility fog? It seems to me that the company would have to test the ability of engineers to know where they are at in dense fog. An official would have to ride with the engineer, have the engineer blindfolded, and ask the engineer to describe the location at certain intervals. The engineer would have to respond by giving sufficient landmarks to identify the location well enough to comply with the rules and instructions pertinent to that location.
Let me try this another way.From what you are describing to me is you are wondering how we can not see a hill comming and know what to do, and with you having no idea how to run a train I over looked the main thing to make you understand what is happening, we are controlling slack while keeping the train at track speed which means we haft to know every inch of territory, how long are train is and how much tonnage I have , and also we run the trains from the rear, a engineer knows where his rear end is at all times, some one gets a knuckle its because train handling was wrong in your mind you are thinking where i am where my rear is and at the same time what am i going ot do to get my train over the next hill 3 miles away and your doing that while your getting over the hill you set yourself up for 3 miles ago, and we make it look so simple. and for anyone who has never had to be in control of a 7600 ft tow, ( a boat or even a truck driver can not compare to this) and 6700-12100 tons cant relize the dedication involved in learning what we do.
It is simple now and second nature but then again what ever job you do now you can do it with your eyes closed but i would struggle till i learn it. I guess the best way to describe my job is running and stopping is 20 % of my job 80% is knowing where i am and what to do if something goes wrong or to make changes, and yes to do this we can run in the dark in the fog because im looking at the ground this culvert this bridge or that farmers crossing just after the pass, a tree that looks funny and maybe a big rock the overpass is the top of the hill, and these are easy to see out the window of the engine not the windshield the window. I dont run my train by sight i run my train by feel, and to feel it is to know what the terrain is doing to it,
Wabash,
I completely understand your points on running a train by feel, without the use of eyesight. You mentioned that anybody can learn to do their job blindfolded. I suppose that it true. And my basic question goes to running in that 100% zero-visibility fog that persists for significant distances.
But you also gave several examples of relying on landmarks near the track, seeing out the side window, etc., so this suggests you are responding to a question about fog that offers at least some visibility. So it seems like I am talking about zero-visibility fog, while you and maybe others, are talking about the more common foggy conditions that most of us have experienced where the fog interferes with visibility, but does not eliminate it.
But, in any case, I suppose that from a practical perspective, the chance of zero-visibility fog lasting long enough for an engineer to lose track of his location is so small that you could almost say it never happens. Such fog would probably have to last at least ten miles before an engineer might lose track of his location. And even to get to zero-visibility, the fog might have to be combined with smoke, which would make it an even rarer occurrence.
I guess anything can happen at anytime.
Running a heavy train is an art. How did the old Masters paint the way they did. Many of the good engineers I worked with would look at the ground most of the time and look up once in a while. Look at old steam engineers could not see forward all that well. They looked down at the ground. I guess a guy could get lost in the fog but he can always slow down if need be.
So it seems like I am talking about zero-visibility fog,
Actually, I don't understand why this subject is such a big deal to the unenlightened ones? We know what we are doing just like the man about to operate on your brain. Just accept it.
Paul_D_North_JrBaltACD and wabash1 - thanks for those detailed explanations. They make it quite clear what's involved, at least to me. To support Bucyrus' concern at least a little bit, the NTSB report on the CSXcoal train runaway on Sand Patch or 17-Mile Grade back around 2002 seemed to lay at least part of the blame on inadequate 'check-out' of the engineer on the main line territory, after he had spent considerable working time on yards only. - Paul North.
Bucyrus Wabash, I completely understand your points on running a train by feel, without the use of eyesight. You mentioned that anybody can learn to do their job blindfolded. I suppose that it true. And my basic question goes to running in that 100% zero-visibility fog that persists for significant distances. But you also gave several examples of relying on landmarks near the track, seeing out the side window, etc., so this suggests you are responding to a question about fog that offers at least some visibility. So it seems like I am talking about zero-visibility fog, while you and maybe others, are talking about the more common foggy conditions that most of us have experienced where the fog interferes with visibility, but does not eliminate it. But, in any case, I suppose that from a practical perspective, the chance of zero-visibility fog lasting long enough for an engineer to lose track of his location is so small that you could almost say it never happens. Such fog would probably have to last at least ten miles before an engineer might lose track of his location. And even to get to zero-visibility, the fog might have to be combined with smoke, which would make it an even rarer occurrence.
I guess if your saying that if i am standing in the fog and cant see my hand rubbing my face then yes its very foggy and i probley drown in the fog also. the worse fog i been in was being able to see the end of the short hood but not the ditch lights and yes i ran track speed. is it hard No. Some crossings you hope nobody is there, the worse making sure the engineer meeting you didnt run by his stop getting in the hole. why because not everyone admits to fault if they can get away with it. and yes dispatcher do listen in and things are recorded. So if your deffinition is you cant see a inch infront of you in the fog as zero visability then i guess you might not be able to run, but ive never been in that kinda of fog, many times it seemed to have 2-3 foot visability and did just fine
My favorite fog is when you're going in and out of valleys and it just lays there---waiting for you. Into the small valley---can't see a dang thing---next minute come out and all is clear again
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
jeffhergert I remember reading a story, but can't remember where, about an engineer who overshot his station stop with a passenger train. The reason was someone cut down the tree that was his landmark to start braking for the stop. [snip] Jeff
Jeff
It was likely ''Drivin' In'' by Art W. Altstadt in the ''RAILROAD READING'' section of the May 2002 issue of Trains, Vol. 62, No. 5, on pp. 71, col. 1, and 72, col. 3. The landmark was a ''big oak tree'', and the ''cautionary story made the rounds among the C&NW locomotive crews'' back in the days of steam was that the tree had been cut down while the engineer was away from his usual run for a few months - as a result, he overshot the station by a good half mile. No further details as to date, station, train, or engineer, etc. were stated - but ''it was said that the engineer was not officially disciplined''.
Spent all weekend looking for that story, I did . . .
- Paul North.
My favorite fog story is a supposedly true story about an old engineer that had to cut off and run for water. He thought he cut away from his train near a big white rock but when he came back and run into his train because he couldn't find his landmark, it was because his white rock was a cow that'd gotten up and left.
Paul_D_North_Jr jeffhergert I remember reading a story, but can't remember where, about an engineer who overshot his station stop with a passenger train. The reason was someone cut down the tree that was his landmark to start braking for the stop. [snip] Jeff It was likely ''Drivin' In'' by Art W. Altstadt in the ''RAILROAD READING'' section of the May 2002 issue of Trains, Vol. 62, No. 5, on pp. 71, col. 1, and 72, col. 3. The landmark was a ''big oak tree'', and the ''cautionary story made the rounds among the C&NW locomotive crews'' back in the days of steam was that the tree had been cut down while the engineer was away from his usual run for a few months - as a result, he overshot the station by a good half mile. No further details as to date, station, train, or engineer, etc. were stated - but ''it was said that the engineer was not officially disciplined''. Spent all weekend looking for that story, I did . . . - Paul North.
We were warned off the use of artefacts or non-permanent features for navigation early in my training as a tank troop leader. Aside from the fact that a single high explosive squash head round can level a building, they can also level a tree...dunnit. Maps tend to have copses of woods drawn to look a certain way based on aerial photos, but a decade down the road you may have a good chunk of a corner of said copse eliminated...or it could be considerably extended by new growth. If you rely on shadows and lengths during night navigation (no lights in tactical situations), you encounter a shadow of a copse looming in front of you and you have no idea which way to turn....left or right...because you don't know where you are! Nowadays GPS would be something to get sucked into relying on as well. They go on the fritz, and then where do you report you are sitting when your senior commander asks you for a location to RV* with you for something important?
So, this story made me smile. Relying on items easily removed or altered for reckoning is risky. That said, you'd think signs for whistling, switch towers, and the like would be pretty darned reliable for reference points.
*rendezvous
-Crandell
Paul_D_North_JrSlightly "off-topic", but - In the mid-1980's Ed King article about his 3 years or so as a manager of the Rock Island's commuter service during its last days - ''Disaster du Jour and Other Tales'', or similar - he mentioned riding with the fairly young engineer of a commuter train - the cab car end, as I recall. After some conversation, the engineer bet Ed that he could make a single 10 lb. reduction, and - not touching either the throttle or any brake thereafter, i.e., 'hands off' - stop with the vestibule of the car opposite the stairwell at a certain station, and then proceeded to do just that, with his hands folded in his lap. When Ed expressed some amazement at the feat, the engineer said something like, "Look, I've been on this run for 2 years now, and make this run 4 times a day, with 24 stops each way, with the same set of equipment. If I couldn't do it by now, I'd be embarrassed." - Paul North.
Operating from the cabcar end is so much easier than from the locomotive. When operating towards Chicago (cabcar end), the lead cabcar is almost always spotted for passengers at each stop, no matter how long the train is. Plus the platforms are usually illuminated.
When operating from the locomotive (outbound from Chicago), the engineer has to take into account the number of "dead" (not being used) coaches, and the number of "active" coaches. If the train you are operating has, for example, 4 dead coaches ahead of 3 active coaches, the spot the engineer uses for the station stop will be different than the spot used if the train has a different configuration, such as 2 active behind 3 dead. And as there are many permutations possible (1 behind 2, 1 behind 3, etc, all the way up to 1 behind 7), and there are (at least on ex-CNW lines) 22-25 stations on each subdivision, one can get a sense for how many landmarks an engineer in suburban service is expected to remember.
Additionally, on the CNW we had a even more difficult time of it, as we not only had all the trainset configurations to deal with, we also had to have spots if you were running an E8, different spots if your power was an F7, and yet different spots for an F40PH. And if you somehow ended up with 2 units (one being tested), hang it up!
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.