Does the Powder River Basin have a limited lifespan?

[Kevin C. Smith]

Railway Man

Coal mines are a mass excavation project that removes a seam of coal 4-15 feet thick over many square miles, in a nearly complete slice.  All that weight of the mountain above wants to descend to fill that void, and eventually it will, and everything on the surface -- lakes, trees, houses, rocks, fields, streams -- will drop right with it.

RWM

Yipes! And to think that I've been worrying that my front yard (ex-swamp) settled a couple of feet when the city put in new storm drains...

[jeaton]

The bad news is that sometimes the water table doesn't subside, too.  Some of the land down in Franklin County, Illinois became swamp.  Flying over, one could see where panels were recently mined out because trees and other kinds of vegitation were dying.

Rend Lake is a Corp of Engineers empoundment of the Big Muddy River.  Needless to say we didn't mine out under the ***, so with subsidence the lake became deeper and a little bit bigger.

It probably depends on the physical characteristics of the coal, but over time there can me subsidence over room and pillar mines.  This can be a royal pain for surface property owners, as the mine can have been closed for decades and the mine owner/operator long gone.

[Convicted One]

looking at this map I'm shocked to see sizeable reserves listed in states such as Iowa...does Iowa have an appreciable coal industry?

 

[htgguy]

Convicted One

looking at this map I'm shocked to see sizeable reserves listed in states such as Iowa...does Iowa have an appreciable coal industry?

Here is some on line info on the history of Iowa coal mining. I seem to remember having read that coal was the inventive for some Iowa railroad development many years ago. It might have Mileposts on the Prairie or another M&StL book, I'm not sure.

Jim

[Railway Man]

 Iowa at one time was a significant coal producing state, but its production essentially ceased by the mid 1950s.  Other one-time major coal producting states in the Midwest were Kansas, Missouri, Arkansas, Oklahoma, and a few other states not typically associated with coal production today.  Of the western states the only states with no appreciable coal reserves or historic mining activity are Nebraska, Nevada, Idaho, Oregon, and California.

That said, Iowa's coal is not very encouraging as to quality.  It's low in BTU, high in sulfur, and high in mining costs. 

RWM

[peterjenkinson1956]

thanks for the map...  the green coal on the map is anthracite...  this was the type of coal grandpa burnt in his home...  the dark yellow is lignite...  just above the rank of peat or as you know it ...  compost....

 

coal is ranked according to type   not age / depth....  anthracite has been put under a lot of pressure   it is allmost pure carbon....  lignite could be called brown coal...  it is ranked just above peat moss

 

the rank of the coal is most likely related to the age...  however it does not mean that it is related to the depth...  over here in central queensland  ( australia )  there is anthracite laying on the surface and can be mined very easily with shovels and trucks..  down south in victoria lignite is also found on the surface...  approx 100ft thick and is mined and fed straight into the power house...  it has the same   btu  as old railroad sleepers

 

i worked at a mine in new south wales   very close to sydney  it had probably the best coking coal in the world the coal was of such a high quality we were buying inferier coal from indonesia blending it...  putting it into a coke plant  and sending it around the world to germany and still making nearly 150 dollars a ton

 

many mines in america  had dirty coal...  high in sulpher....   if the power plant had to put scrubbers in place to burn the coal then the coal was too expensive to use... thats why a lot of the newer plants were designed to burn lower btu  powder river coal

 

i worked at a mine in central qld   the one seam of coal produced 11 saleable products due to the washing of the coal ..  lots of times the coal is blended as it is loaded onto the ship and can be loaded with coal from another state / mine   supplied to the customers blending req as needed for steel production

 

the mine i am currently working at  has both coking and steaming coal...  the steaming coal ( dull coal ) is on the lower one third of the seam  there is a mud band then coking coal above... the wash plant sorts it into both products

 

over here in australia we are the worlds largest exporter of coal... the global recession has not hit us as bad as american mines ..  infact jobs are on the rise...  we cannot get enough miners... we have miners from germany  england  and from america...  a couple of days ago there was over ninety coal ships waiting to get loaded just of shore..i live next to the barrier reef....

 

so....  when coal is worth sending around the world and at a profit ( send dirty coal to india..  now unlikely )  or the powder river coal improves in rank then it will only be good for burning in very large power plants

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

peterjenkinson and RWM - thanks as always for all the info and insight, from here on the edge of the Pennsylvania anthracite coal region.  Kind of puts it into perspective - the domestic coal producers - and hence the railroads, are both somewhat subject to coal and markets elsewhere, over which they have no control.

Which brings me to a possibly related question:  The Tumbler Ridge coal mines in British Columbia, which were closed in the late 1990s/ early 2000s - were they an early version or precursor of what could happen to the PRB ?

- Paul North.

[Railway Man]

Not really comparable except that all coal mines share the same life-cycle of discovery, exploitation, and economic exhaustion either because the resource is used up or, more typically, because the cover gets too deep.  Peace River Coal of which Tumber Ridge is a field is a complicated mix of met coal for coking, met coal for PCI (pulverized injection into blast furnaces) and steam coal.  The PRB's market is 100% U.S. "compliance coal" for power generation.  The Peace River's market is 100% export into Asia primarily for met coal. The PRB is 100% a surface operation, Peace River is a mix of surface, near-surface, and underground.

By the way, mining activity ceased at Tumbler Ridge but since has resumed.

RWM

[blownout cylinder]

Are there any shale oil areas associated with the Powder River complexes?

 

[Railway Man]

 No.

[selector]

Where is Dale?  He might know more about recent strong interest in opening a coal mind just across the valley from me.  Cumberland was for a long time heavily into coal and timber, and the quality of newly discovered seams has a lot of buzz going on.  Nimby's just as vocal, BTW.

-Crandell

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Railway Man

[snip] By the way, mining activity ceased at Tumbler Ridge but since has resumed.

RWM

Thanks for the analysis and update.  An apt illustration of what you said in the 4th paragraph of a post on 11-09-2009 at 2:30 AM [EST], about halfway down Page 2 of 5 (presently) of this thread [emphasis added]: 

"It's important to think about what is economical to mine and what isn't.  There's an old saying in the mining business that "today's waste is tomorrow's ore."  In other words, every time the value of the mineral changes, the demarkation line changes between what you would mine and what you would not." 

Unrelated to this thread - but apropos of that saying - I laughed when I read that.  I've long thought that someday there will be giant mining machines boring their way through old landfills to recover and then sort the scrap metals such as copper, aluminum, steel, etc. - particularly in urban areas, where I speculate that the concentration of the refined metal that could be recovered from such landfills in terms of lbs. per ton might approach that of the raw ore.  Plus, combustibles such as plastics, undecomposed wood and cloth, etc. could be shredded and burned for fuel.  Fantasy or science fiction ?  I don't know, and I'm not taking any bets on it - but I wouldn't bet against it, either.

Thanks again.

- Paul North.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Railway Man

[snips] It's rarely a question of a mineral being used up, but almost always a question of the cheap sources of the mineral being used up.  [snip]

RWM

Yep.  Or, as my professor in the Antitrust Law course at Villanova Law School - Howard B. Lurie - said to us back during the '2nd Arab gas crisis/ shortage/ rationing' circa 1979:  ''Sure, there's gas available on the market.  There's not much cheap gas - but there's lots of expensive gas out there.''    It brought down the house.

- Paul North.

[jeaton]

Paul_D_North_Jr

Railway Man

[snip] By the way, mining activity ceased at Tumbler Ridge but since has resumed.

RWM

Thanks for the analysis and update.  An apt illustration of what you said in the 4th paragraph of a post on 11-09-2009 at 2:30 AM [EST], about halfway down Page 2 of 5 (presently) of this thread [emphasis added]: 

"It's important to think about what is economical to mine and what isn't.  There's an old saying in the mining business that "today's waste is tomorrow's ore."  In other words, every time the value of the mineral changes, the demarkation line changes between what you would mine and what you would not." 

Unrelated to this thread - but apropos of that saying - I laughed when I read that.  I've long thought that someday there will be giant mining machines boring their way through old landfills to recover and then sort the scrap metals such as copper, aluminum, steel, etc. - particularly in urban areas, where I speculate that the concentration of the refined metal that could be recovered from such landfills in terms of lbs. per ton might approach that of the raw ore.  Plus, combustibles such as plastics, undecomposed wood and cloth, etc. could be shredded and burned for fuel.  Fantasy or science fiction ?  I don't know, and I'm not taking any bets on it - but I wouldn't bet against it, either.

Thanks again.

- Paul North.

A large regional landfill just down the road is "mining" the methane produced by the buried garbage.  They have three Caterpillar engines driving the generators.  I don't recall the specifics, but it is said to produce enough power to meet the routine residential needs of our town of about 10,000.

In the line of what works when it works, when I was in the area, a trucker was mining the waste piles at abandoned mines in southern Illinois.  He had a small wash plant set up and was selling the coal he recoverd to one of the power plants in the area.  Needless to say, it took a very large amount of material to get a truckload of coal, but the trucker wasn't in the thing just for fun.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

jeaton

  A large regional landfill just down the road is "mining" the methane produced by the buried garbage.  They have three Caterpillar engines driving the generators.  I don't recall the specifics, but it is said to produce enough power to meet the routine residential needs of our town of about 10,000.

In the line of what works when it works, when I was in the area, a trucker was mining the waste piles at abandoned mines in southern Illinois.  He had a small wash plant set up and was selling the coal he recoverd to one of the power plants in the area.  Needless to say, it took a very large amount of material to get a truckload of coal, but the trucker wasn't in the thing just for fun. 

Yep.  The methane recovery and fuel use is getting to be 'old news' around here - that takes care of most of the 'gas' form of matter from the landfill.  What I'm suggesting would take care of some of the solid matter; but what I haven't seen or figured out yet is what to do with the liquid form = 'leachate'. 

Most of the recentyl constructed electric 'co-generation' plants in the former hard coal/ anthracite areas just to the north and west of here - Hazleton and Ashland, for instance - are similarly fueled by formerly waste coal that was discarded back in the day with the slate and other then-unsuitable material as 'culm', and is now being separated and graded, cleaned, etc.  If they keep at it, maybe in another 100 years or so there'll be a noticeable decrease in the size of some of those culm pile 'mountains' up that way . . .

- Paul North.

[nanaimo73]

selector

Where is Dale?  He might know more about recent strong interest in opening a coal mind just across the valley from me.

I'm mostly a lurker now.

There has been talk about that Cumberland coal riding the E&N down to Parksville and then over to Port Alberni for shipment to Asia, but I won't believe it till I see it.

http://www2.canada.com/nanaimodailynews/story.html?id=59161b4b-00c3-4039-8093-60e53ebbc57f

 

[nanaimo73]

Perhaps if mining increases in southern Montana the Tongue River Railroad will get built.

[selector]

Thanks, Dale.   I hope your lurking is a temporary remedy for what keeps you from being more active here, but even if we have to call on you this way from time-to-time and welcome you this way, it's cool with me.

-Crandell

[BNSFwatcher]

Wow!  That would be neat:  living downwind of a powerplant fueled by newly-mined disposable diapers!  Go for it, Paul!  Go for it, Allentown!

Bill

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

  Hey - I already mentioned on another thread the LaFarge Whitehall cement plant that burns tires and now the miscellaneous plastics - and there's also the Keystone Cement plant just south of Bath that burns liquid haz-mats, including PCBs if I recall correctly - so what's some more 'natural' and 'organic' material to feed the fires, eh ?   The electrons don't know the difference, nor does my computer . . .

- Paul North. 

[erikem]

nanaimo73

Perhaps if mining increases in southern Montana the Tongue River Railroad will get built.

 

First time I heard talk about building a line between Miles City and Sheridan was in 1976 (visiting relatives in Miles City). My uncle mentioned that the "North-South RR" was being talked about in the 1920's and some grading was actually done (still visible from the air in 1976).

- Erik

[daveklepper]

There may be  transition from coal to natural gas unless ways to "scrub" coal power plant exhausts can be found that are less expensive than present methods.  Natural gas is also very abundant.