Budds in freight service

[GMS-AU]

Hi All, I remember reading in trains some time ago that Budd RDC's where being used in Nova Scotia and would pull a freight car or two as well. Was this true,and does it still happen? Does anyone remember which trains mag this may have been in? Thanks for your help people.

[M636C]

The Budd Company didn't like RDCs hauling other cars, but they clearly could. The Commonwealth Railways had special box cars, class VDB, fitted to operate with straight air brakes, which were used most of the time with their cars. They also hauled modified NDH class narrow gauge railcars (class ADH), as well as the VDB vans when working the standard gauge "Ghan" connection to Marree.

So the Nova Scotia operation is quite possible but would rely on having freight cars whose brakes worked with the Budd cars, or running those cars without air brakes, or fitting the Budd cars to operate Westinghouse brakes.

Peter

[Grinandbearit]

I have never heard of Budds pulling freight cars anywhere in Canada . Maybe our friend in the Annapolis Valley could tell us if he knows anything about this. There might have been some instances on old Interurban lines where Gas-electric cars or trolleys pulled freight but never heard of Budds and freight.

[Kozzie]

Sounds like another interesting pasenger service to run on the layout - especially an exhibition layout. heh heh

Hey Peter! [:O] I didn't realize you had passed the big 500! [:O] Well done. [:D][^]
Keep up the good work[;)][:)]

Dave

[M636C]

The Santa Fe, who usually hauled some freight cars with their gas-electrics (McCall's book "Doodlebugs" even shows them kicking cars around the yard) don't seem to have even tried that with their RDCs (although they only had two). They did convert one from an RDC-1 to an RDC-3 (ie added a large baggage compartment) so clearly they were using them for mail and express work.

The ATSF Gas Electrics must have had Westinghouse rather than direct air brakes. A couple of services had stainless steel observation cars coupled to red and silver gas electrics towards the end of those services.

The big, articulated, two unit car M-190 was clearly designed for hauling ordinary cars, even before they put an ex US Navy 567 into it after WWII.

Perhaps Santa Fe didn't trust the RDC's Allison transmission to take the beating the GE electrical gear clearly did in their service.

Peter

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Budd RDC's pulling anything other than other RDC's in MU was relatively rare because they weren't designed for pulling trailers.

In the reverse direction, it was also uncommon to see them as part of the consist of a passenger train made up of standard cars. The only situations that I'm aware of are on the RI south of Kansas City and in suburban service on NYC/PC out of Grand Central Terminal.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Grinandbearit

I have never heard of Budds pulling freight cars anywhere in Canada . Maybe our friend in the Annapolis Valley could tell us if he knows anything about this. There might have been some instances on old Interurban lines where Gas-electric cars or trolleys pulled freight but never heard of Budds and freight.

There were lots of instances when the Gas-electrics would haul very small freight trains (usually not more than one or two boxcars) on the old BC Electric Railway that ran from North Vancouver to Horshoe bay (now BC Rail soon to be CN).

There was a book I got from the library that had some awsome pictures of the old BC Electric Railway right of way, it was quite the thing to see. I think there was more grass on the right of way than I have in my front yard! [:)]

[AntonioFP45]

Budd had a clause in their sales contract stating that the mechanical components warranty on the RDCs was voided if RDCs were used to pull trailers.

[passengerfan]

Have a question for macguy ? Wasn't the railroad he was talking about the Pacific Great Eastern before it became the British Columbia Railway operating from North Vancouver to Horseshoe Bay then to Squamish later.
Only railroad I know that pulled a freight car behind their RDC's was the M&STL. They had special Aluminum boxcars built and operated a single one behind their RDC-4s. There RDC-4 units had 17 seats in them for passengers the only RDC-4s thus equipped.
The C&EI owned a single RDC and they sometimes pulled a lightweight coach behind it when traffic warranted. Of course both uses voided the Budd warranty on these RDCs.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Additional comment to my earlier post about RDC's in the consist of locomotive-hauled trains. The RDC had to keep its engines running even while being towed in order to prevent the wheels from sliding. There were special instructions in this regard in Penn Central employee timetables.

[jchnhtfd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH

Additional comment to my earlier post about RDC's in the consist of locomotive-hauled trains. The RDC had to keep its engines running even while being towed in order to prevent the wheels from sliding. There were special instructions in this regard in Penn Central employee timetables.

This rings a very faint bell... somewhere I seem to recall that the engines also had to be kept running to keep oil pressure up in the transmission, avoiding damage. They were somewhat finicky beasts...

On the question of hauling freight, one thing to keep in mind is that their brakes were OK, but not much better than that, and they had remarkably little tractive effort. Hauling much of anything one would have really wanted to be able to control the brakes on the rest of the consist -- which, as someone noted, would mean somehow converting to or adding a train type airbrake capability.

[siberianmo]

QUOTE: GMS-AU Posted: 22 May 2004, 23:54:03
Hi All, I remember reading in trains some time ago that Budd RDC's where being used in Nova Scotia and would pull a freight car or two as well. Was this true,and does it still happen? Does anyone remember which trains mag this may have been in? Thanks for your help people.

I'm a fan of RDC's and just researched part of the question in "RDC The Budd Rail Diesel Car," by Donald Duke and Edmond Keilty.

On page 62 they say, "About the only task an RDC could not do was haul a non-powered trailer car. During a trial test, the Chicago & Eastern Illinois tried just such an experiment. The result; the fluid in the Allison torgque converters immediately heated up to the danger point. The car's design was such that it could pull nothing other than itself. It was an unrealistic request to ask that much from a vehicle that heats and cools itself, stops like a motor bus, and costs about the price of a lounge car. Despite this fact, there were still several roads that did pull trailers, at least for a period of time. Among these lines were the Minneapolis & St. Louis, the Rock Island, the Chesapeake & Ohio, the Southern Pacific, and the Long Island."

Obviously once a railroad owned the cars, who knows what the use? Anything could have happened - but I bet not that often, at least with the original torque converters, etc.

See ya! [tup] [;)]

[Anonymous]

The November 1998 issue of Trains has a mention of RDC hauling nonpowered cars. The news photos on page 33 has a picture of a Quebec, North Shore & Labrador trio of RDC's hauling one roadrailer. The caption also make mention that the RDC's hauled the railroads dome coach around that time occasionally. I don't know if this still happens or not. Having three RDC's would have to make it easier to haul cars with the units.

[daveklepper]

The New Haven tried it, was successful, and painted one "American Flyer" 8200 silver to match. Then Budd stepped in and said they would void the guarantee on all Budd cars, and the New Haven stopped the practice and repainted the 8200-series car back ot \\to Hunter green.

[jchnhtfd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tomtrain

My recollection is the RDC's had good brakes. I remember being on Amtrak's Black Hawk (3 RDC's) from Chicago to Rockford in the 70's when the engineer made an emergency stop going through Elmhurst. Turned out to be a toaster oven on the track. We stopped almost on a dime.

Um. Well, yes and no. The RDCs did have good brakes, for themselves. In fact, they were really quite sophisticated (for the day), even having wheel slip sensors and automatic sanders. And a train of Budds could accelerate and stop very very quickly (much better than the Doodlebugs they replaced!), which was one of the major selling points. But they didn't have the tractive effort to stop much except themselves -- that's what I was trying to get at.

[BNSFGP38]

Didnt they make the RDC-9 that was blank on both ends and was just made for frieght/express/mail.

[nanaimo73]

Via Rail Canada has a RDC-4 they use in Northern Ontario which has room for canoes.
I thought I read somewhere that RDC's had only 2 powered axels and when Connecticut got the SPV-2000 the unions wanted two guys up front because they had 4 powered axels.

[jchnhtfd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

Via Rail Canada has a RDC-4 they use in Northern Ontario which has room for canoes.
I thought I read somewhere that RDC's had only 2 powered axels and when Connecticut got the SPV-2000 the unions wanted two guys up front because they had 4 powered axels.

I've been on that RDC-4 -- with my canoe. Nice folks. Stand by the track and look tired, and they pick you up.

As the the union in Connecticut and the SPV-2000 -- I believe, brother, I believe.

[M636C]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFGP38

Didnt they make the RDC-9 that was blank on both ends and was just made for frieght/express/mail.

No, the RDC-4 was the baggage/express/mail version.
The RDC-9 was basically an RDC-1 with one engine and no cabs, and was designed for commuter service. The theory was that much of the resistance encountered by a Budd Car was air resistance, and if they were running coupled, the second and third cars were getting a "free ride" as far as air resistance was concened, and could have half the power. Realistically, you needed a cab at each end of the train, and the special RDC-9 was never very popular.

Peter

[Paul Milenkovic]

I am kind of surprised that the SPV-2000 had 4 axles powered. One of the reasons for powering only two axles on the RDC (and on the Colorado Railcars DMU) is that you have two Diesels, each powering one axle, and you don't connect more than one axle to a drive train, creating the problem of having the wheels exactly the same diameter or having some kind of torque-splitter gizmo as on automobile all-wheel drive systems.

I guess these RDC stories explain why Diesel hydraulics had their limitations -- no transmission is without loss and you have to dissipate the heat somehow -- the electric drives have traction motor and generator blowers and the thermal limits of insulators are well understood.

The Colorado Railcars fellow I talked to when the DMU came to town told me that their unit is rated to pull a trailer.

[Anonymous]

Didn't the DMU haul more than one Bombardier commuter car when it was testing on Miami's Tri-Rail?

[Overmod]

If I recall correctly, the limitation of keeping engines running on RDCs under tow is related to oil, all right... but it's oil lubricating the bearings in the transmission, not oil in the torque-converter circuit causing hydrodynamic braking. This would be similar to the reason you're not supposed to tow most automatic-transmission vehicles with the drive wheels on the ground for long distances.

Meanwhile, of course you could keep those transmission temps down by the same method adrianspeeder probably knows well (if he's familiar with strokin' loads as well as git'n-er-dun quickly): nice big external hydraulic-fluid coolers, probably with their own set of cooling fans. (Show me a motor-electric car, btw, that doesn't have forced cooling for appropriate parts of its "transmission": traction-motor blowers.) Of course, what's the point of doing this for a couple of 270-hp truck engines already pulling a fairly big carbody?

For sheer fun, though, why discuss RDCs, when there are probably New Yorkers on this list who will remember SUBWAY CARS switching freight... ;-O

[jchnhtfd]

Overmod -- I'm pretty sure you're right on the bearings. My recollection -- which is hazy at best at this distance -- is that the pump supplying oil under pressure to the transmission bearings and so on on those Allisons was driven by the input shaft, not the output shaft, so the input shaft had to be spinning to get oil pressure -- which meant the engine had to be running.

[daveklepper]

I do not recall any subway cars switching freight, but a number of the 900-series and 1000 series open-platform wood Brooklyn United elevated cars were converted into work motors with both trolley poles and third rail shoes and did substitute for the usual steeple cab locomotives in South Brooklyn on-the-street, right of way, and elevated freight service, including trackage now used by New York and Atlantic and New York Dock railway, all of which at one time had trolley wire overhead. Some steel subway cars, including "Red Birds" have been converted into work motors and do haul hopper cars and gondolas for track maintenance and rebuilding, looking exacly like a subway car pulled freight train. Earlier steel cars were also used in this kind of service, and the IND division even had some specialized cars that looked like subway cars with windows and some doors missing. In addition to ex elevated cars, the South Brooklyn sometimes would borrow a streecar system crane car or snowplow for use as a freight locomotive, and I occasionally bumbed a ride! Lots of adapter couplers around and zero attempt to use the freight car airbrakes. Generally only up to three or four cars would be handled at one time. No train longer than a city block was allowed anyway.