Looking at maps, I can see that the rail route runs roughly parallel to Maine Route 11 from Millinocket to Fort Kent and US route 1 from there to Madawaska. Generally, it doesn't get any further into the wilderness to the west nor serve any towns not already on the highway.
Even if the state made the rail line open to anybody for a very low or no fee, does anyone really think that with the cost getting the power and the cars, and then running them over the line at probable top speed of 25 MPH is going to be competitive with trucking?
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
Though the route is very scenic it is not a wilderness. We do have small industries on spurs of the route. Oakfield-sidings/yard is full of old box cars that haven’t moved in years.New Limerick/Houlton-receives tank cars and logs and ships out wood products a few times a week, also stores old boxcars.Presque Isle/Easton-same as above without the rusted box car storage.Ft Fairfield-not much of anything.Limestone-nothing since Loring AFB closed in 93, they had a coal fired heating plant, the tracks are sill there but they paved over road crossings east of Caribou.Ft Kent-a few log cars sitting on the siding.Madawaska-daily switching of tank and boxcars, route east ties to the CN at St Leonard.The Canadian National is very busy on the other side of the river from Madawaska I see trains all day while I am fishing the St John.Two years ago I happened upon a group outing with about 25 speeders that went from Houlton to Presque Isle, spent the night and came back to Houlton; they looked like they had a blast.A final note the roads on American Loggers are privately owned so they can run any size or weight truck they want. The only caribou in Maine is the name of the city.
jeaton Looking at maps, I can see that the rail route runs roughly parallel to Maine Route 11 from Millinocket to Fort Kent and US route 1 from there to Madawaska. Generally, it doesn't get any further into the wilderness to the west nor serve any towns not already on the highway.
Which is quite a bit more than the American West was before the CP and the UP started towards their meet on May 10, 1869.
jeaton Even if the state made the rail line open to anybody for a very low or no fee, does anyone really think that with the cost getting the power and the cars, and then running them over the line at probable top speed of 25 MPH is going to be competitive with trucking?
Well, that challenge applies to a lot of short lines and branch lines, esp. the prairie grain lines, doesn't it ? And they seem to be surviving - some are even thriving. More broadly, that's pretty much the problem for any general cargo rail line = one without unit coal, grain, or intermodal trains and their special niches.
This sounds kind of like the former PRR Del-Mar-Va line down the peninsula of the same name. It has really good roads parallel to it, and is mostly agricultural, with a lot of boating and beaches, and a few pockets of industry in the bigger inland towns, as well as a huge coal-fired power plant at Indian River, Delaware. Despite that meager traffic base, rail operations have continued and been improved, if not exactly thrived - for example, the swing-bridge to the line in Wilmington was rebuilt by NS in a partnership with the state about 5 - 10 years ago, if I'm not mistaken. Further south, the State of Maryland has a Rail Authority that looks after the maintenance of the line, and contracts with the Designated Operator; I'm not informed as to how matters are handled in the Virginia portion.
Up in Maine, pretty much any lower-value, not-time-sensitive commodity is a potential source of traffic. I gave the example of pulpwood above; why not finished sawed lumber, too ? I'm now recalling that a few months ago/ last fall, there were articles about shortages of sawdust for various uses, as well as the compressed-sawdust wood pellets for home heating woodstoves, esp. in the NorthEast U.S. Those would seem to be worthy traffic sources. Do the road depts. use stone for construction and maintenance, as well as anyone else doing construction, esp. with concrete ? Any aggregate traffic inbound could be a source. With all the streams in Maine for possible use as cooling water, I wonder if a coal-fired power plant is feasible, to be sold as a 'merchant generator', for example. Is there a possible link with CN or the Irving's New Brunswick & Eastern [?] for a shorter intermodal route from either Halifax, N.S., or St. John, N.B. ?
This would also seem to be an ideal application for the Rail-Mate technology that greyhounds has mentioned in other threads on this Forum. Any intermodal system could work, actually, for the right traffic.
I'm not saying at all that there's significant traffic there. But there appears to be some, with a potential for more in the future. It won't happen unless the rail line is there - the 'chicken-and-egg' dilemma again - so that's why it might be worthwhile to preserve the line for a decade or two.
The 'open access' aspect is just 'icing on the cake' or a variation in how it could be operated, that might make it easier for potential new ventures to get started, that's all.
- Paul North.
Per Paul North's question about building a coal fired power plant on the line, the political/regulatory climate in New England, even in the far North, is not at all favorable to coal, there are are currently only 4 such plants in the entire region (only 2 receive rail shipments, the other 2 are waterfront plants with docks). I won't even bring up Federal permitting for new coal plants.....
The most likely scenario for continued rail service on the line seems to be the State buying it and Montreal, Maine & Atlantic continuing their current operations( and I assume charging the state for doing M.O.W). This seems to be what the company is seeking..
from the M,M,& A website;
http://www.mmarail.com/sections/news/files/Bangor%20Daily%20News%20article%208-14-2009.pdf
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
henry6 It's never been done. Anywhere as far as I know. So, everything and anythng is fair game. I know enough about the back country of Maine to know that getting there is not always easy or quick, nor close. There has to be a marketing study, an economic study, and feasability study, and all kinds of other studies to determine what can be done. So, with it never having been done, anything can go, be suggested, introduced, hypothosized, thought of, interjected, dreamed. And since its never been done before, the chances are that it won't be done now. Or in the near future. But the single thought that this is a chance to introduce and maybe explore the concept is all that matters. There could be single tractors pulling one or two trailers of coal, wood or potatos; maybe whole train loads. Maybe hunters and fishermen could run thier SUV's up the line and pull off anywhere they want or need to; maybe it would be a single body bus with trailer....as I said, it has never been done, so the concept is wide open for exploring.
It's never been done. Anywhere as far as I know. So, everything and anythng is fair game. I know enough about the back country of Maine to know that getting there is not always easy or quick, nor close. There has to be a marketing study, an economic study, and feasability study, and all kinds of other studies to determine what can be done. So, with it never having been done, anything can go, be suggested, introduced, hypothosized, thought of, interjected, dreamed. And since its never been done before, the chances are that it won't be done now. Or in the near future. But the single thought that this is a chance to introduce and maybe explore the concept is all that matters. There could be single tractors pulling one or two trailers of coal, wood or potatos; maybe whole train loads. Maybe hunters and fishermen could run thier SUV's up the line and pull off anywhere they want or need to; maybe it would be a single body bus with trailer....as I said, it has never been done, so the concept is wide open for exploring.
I'm not trying to promote the concept but there is a group in the UK thinking along similiar lines;
http://faculty.washington.edu/jbs/itrans/bladerunner1.htm
http://www.silvertipdesign.com/
It is an interesting idea...
Most of the sawmill have recently closed, the closings are part of the MMA problems. The economy is very bad; many paper mills are closed or have shut down almost completely. The big OSB and LVL building products plants in New Limerick and Easton are running on skeleton crews a few days a week instead of 24/7. As for power plants Aroostook County is not even on the national electrical grid, all our power flows in and out of New Brunswick. We have a few wind farms and biofuel (wood chips) powered plants. None could use rail for supply. I could never see a coal plant here, we have too many out of state nut cases that have moved here protesting everything (hint: Massachusetts). Wind farms-destroys my view, nuke-don’t even think about it, Hydro-ruin my yearly canoe trip, train traffic-scares butterflies.Aggregate is sourced locally, plenty of rock everywhere.Maine is not business friendly, it is overregulated, taxes are very high and they tax everything they can think of.
OK, then - I see what you mean. Hard for me to tell from this distance whether those problems are 'mere' transients in the national economy, or more permanent local economic structural deficiencies, etc.
So maybe ship out frozen fish ? Water for those areas where it is scarce ? Scenery for those who lack it in their backyard ?
- PDN.
Paul,
Could they not lift some rails at the west end, but leave the rest in place, until the economy improves? That way, you would not have to maintain the line in the interim. When the economy improves enough to run trains again, you could fix what needs fixing and then start back up. At elast the track would still be there.
George
I was thinking moose, but my fingers typed out caribou.
I don't think that state ownership is necessarily a bad idea. A substantial portion of the operation of the Wisconsin & Southern is on publicly owned track. I suspect that Burkhardt is contemplated that business model for the trackage in question. Of course the decision to buy the line is up to the citizens and government of Maine.
When he ran the Wisconsin Central, Burkhardt had a reputation for doing a good job of developing rail business. He has probably been making the same effort on the MM&A, but the business downturn has hit the railroad very hard. To the best of my knowledge, the man doesn't have an oil well or gold mine in his back yard, but I suspect that is the rest of the railroad was generating enough cash to spend some on the line in question he wouldn't be making the move to abandon or sell it off.
overall Could they not lift some rails at the west end, but leave the rest in place, until the economy improves? That way, you would not have to maintain the line in the interim. When the economy improves enough to run trains again, you could fix what needs fixing and then start back up. At elast the track would still be there. George
Sure - absolutely. That's just what the 'big boys' do when they want to embargo a line - ConRail did that just above Portland, PA to close the former DL&W / E-L main to Scranton, and just in the last week or so I read about another location where that had been done [can't remember where just now, though].
If there's any possibility of a line being reactiviated, I'm 100 % in favor of leaving the track intact, even if almost all the ties rot out in the interim (there's always a few that don't), and even if a 'rail-trail' has to go in on the side instead. That at least gives the track crews a base to start from, and saves the trouble of having to start from scratch, which can be difficult. Unless the subgrade is really boggy, or the proposed use will be really intense - like unit coal trains - the old subgrade is probably good enough. It's usually far easier to bring to M-O-W equipment and materials in by rail and work off the existing track - even if all the ties and rails are to be replaced, and significant ballast added = all-new track - than to start from scratch. There are exceptions - primarily if the track is filled in and the access is pretty good - but if it's miles back in the woods, keep the track intact.
jeaton, what you posted just above seems to be an accurate summation of the current Maine economic situation and Ed Burkhardt's style. If there's a harder-working and more aggressive regional rail entrepreneur, I don't know who it is.
You're right Paul...when in doubt, don't take it out! Using the same former DL&W track: PA banked the line through Stroudsburg to Anolomink and up the mountain; CR and NS went to Stroudsburg from Portland via Bangor. But CR pulled the track from Slateford Jct. east to Port Morris, NJ and sold the whole right of way out from under everybody! It has been a struggle to purchase the property and, now, get track relayed.
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Let''s give the dang truckers 1 east west road cross country and 1 north south road and only let truckers run on them at whatever weight they want but they have to maintain the roads see how long the suckers we pay taxes to have on any road can stay in business.
Phoebe Vet What I am actually in favor of is the state acquiring and preserving the right of way. If it can be used for something all the better but that is a separate argument. VA and NC are in the process of reactivating a long abandoned right of way between Richmond and Raleigh which they had the foresight to preserve. It is to be used for the new Southeast Corridor HSR.
What I am actually in favor of is the state acquiring and preserving the right of way. If it can be used for something all the better but that is a separate argument.
VA and NC are in the process of reactivating a long abandoned right of way between Richmond and Raleigh which they had the foresight to preserve. It is to be used for the new Southeast Corridor HSR.
My understanding is that it was North Carolina who was the main motivator for railbanking that line (in fact, North Carolina seems to be saving just about every old line - in more than one place in that state, I've seen rails totally disappear into woods). Maybe Virginia played a role, but North Carolina's motivation for railbanking was to provide for better pasenger service to Raleigh and further south - Virginia at that point had less interest in passenger service). Of course, most of the abandoned line was in Virginia (roughly from Petersburg, VA to Norlina, NC)
The Raleigh-Norlina, NC portion of the former SAL line is intact (as is the SAL line from Richmond south which is cut off somewhere between Richmond and Petersburg) and is owned and operated by CSX - while it isn't a terribly busy line (probably one or two trains a day at most) there are some pretty large shippers/receivers along there in Henderson, Middleton, and just south of Norlina. The line enters Norlina and is intact there - starting there the line is still down but it disappears into the woods and has trees growing through it.
In Virginia, the line is largely not intact, but a lot of bridges/features have been left - for example, the large bridge over Lake Gaston is still present - the bridge supports are up in Petersburg (as are some tracks).
I guess one question if that line becomes a high speed rail line is how will be freight operations (which will undoubtably continue since CSX continues to own the line from close to Norlina to Raleigh (that portion of the line was merely downgraded due to continuing need for freight service).
Of course, I guarantee that given the frequent service meltdowns on the A Line that CSX wishes they didn't remove the SAL line from Petersburg to Norlina.
Maine has actually done a better job with rail than either New Hampshire or Connecticut -- which isn't saying much, but it's something anyway. I rather hope that they will have the wit to take MM&A up on this offer.
Offensive comments deleted by me; sorry to create a fuss. Didn't mean to. I have a private beef about some things -- which I should have kept private.
jchnhtfd Anybody else notice that the two recent new items regarding trucking in the Wire originated from "Public" (read: liberal left) Broadcasting Stations? Funny thing, that... Maine has actually done a better job with rail than either New Hampshire or Connecticut -- which isn't saying much, but it's something anyway. I rather hope that they will have the wit to take MM&A up on this offer. Maine truckers, by the way, have the good life -- they can move cargo a lot faster than by rail: I've clocked many trucks at well into the 80 mph range both on the Maine Turnpike and on various back roads -- and they can move a lot of cargo, too: I've seen a lot of loads well over 80,000 pounds on both the Turnpike and on State highways. Regulation and enforcement seem to be pretty feeble...
Anybody else notice that the two recent new items regarding trucking in the Wire originated from "Public" (read: liberal left) Broadcasting Stations? Funny thing, that... Maine has actually done a better job with rail than either New Hampshire or Connecticut -- which isn't saying much, but it's something anyway. I rather hope that they will have the wit to take MM&A up on this offer. Maine truckers, by the way, have the good life -- they can move cargo a lot faster than by rail: I've clocked many trucks at well into the 80 mph range both on the Maine Turnpike and on various back roads -- and they can move a lot of cargo, too: I've seen a lot of loads well over 80,000 pounds on both the Turnpike and on State highways. Regulation and enforcement seem to be pretty feeble...
Not bad. In one post you have insulted Public Radio, Liberals, New Hampshire, Connecticut, Truck drivers, and Police Officers.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
You are wrong about "Liberal Left" radio stations. First, Public Radio is the most balanced, even handed radio news in the country. Second, the others said to be "Liberal Left" are, owned by the same big "Conservative right" business, who make that statement. Third, I have been a member of the media for almost 50 years and cringe when I realize how much the big business media has touted that statement for their own benefit while the hoodwinked sheep eats it right up! I am supposed to be a right winger in the office but tell everyone that the business is all liberal...sorry, 'taint so!
As for the Maine truckers doing 80...anyplace there are trucks you'll find them doing the normal 15 mph over the posted speed limit, not just Maine. As for load limits, that's up to the State of Maine and its police districts how its handled.
With Fuel costs approaching 3 bucks a GALLON and rates UNDER 1.20 a MILE. I hate to tell you this BUT NO driver that does this for a LIVING and FOR A PROFIT would be running 80 MPH. Also a speeding ticket that is 15 MPH or over is an AUTOMATIC 6 MONTH VACATION UNPAID FROM DRIVING. Also the current comapny will be showing you the Door and your Insurance company would be Doubling your rates also. 95% of all OTR trucks are Goverened in the ECM at less than 68 MPH. Also I checked with the Maine Department of Transportation. On the Maine Turnpike Trucks are allowed with extra Axles to weigh 90K so could that be why you are seeing larger than what you are used to.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Actually I was wrong on the Limits here is the Maine DOT site and they have Increased it 10K more. Why called the Trucks are getting it there more than likely. BTW Maine was the First to allow 80K in the east First to allow 53 Foot Trailers and also First to realize that spilt Speed limits do nothing to improve Highway Safety. I can speak from experiance here on the split limit. Try having to LIE to a family as their only son died in your arms after he hit your trailer doing 70 MPH as you were doing 55 MPH in California on a Crotch rocket he peeled himself like an onion. He died screaming in my arms in 1999 I lied to his mom and dad and told them he was not in pain even though I was covered in his BLOOD. I told them his last worlds were tell my parents I love them and I will always love them. Not KILL ME PLEASE LET ME DIE PLE http://www.maine.gov/sos/bmv/commercial/swlimit.htmASE.
jchnhtfd my apologies -- sorry everybody.
my apologies -- sorry everybody.
-Norris
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