SoCal-to-Vegas rail route wins federal designation

[zardoz]

 LAS VEGAS (AP) - The clogged tourist travel route between Southern California and Las Vegas has been designated a federal high-speed rail corridor, in a move that officials hope would signal increased cooperation between the regions on building speedier train travel.

U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood announced Thursday that the route is now considered part of the federally designated California high-speed rail corridor.

LaHood called the congestion on Interstate 15 linking Southern California and the Las Vegas-area, "very bad for business, very bad for safety and certainly very bad for the environment."

Full article here: http://apnews.myway.com/article/20090703/D996RG8G1.html

[ndbprr]

 

And his boss is threatening anyone who goes to Las Vegas for a convention with retaliation so don't look for anything other than a political make news blurb to happen.

[Modelcar]

.....Why don't we try to think possitive about it.  Who knows.....something might get started with enough thinking in that direction.

[htgguy]

Modelcar

.....Why don't we try to think possitive about it.  Who knows.....something might get started with enough thinking in that direction.

Because it is more important to be realistic. And the reality is that if this line is built, it will be a huge investment of money our government borrows from others, to be paid back by our children. And if that is not bad enough, the line will require never ending subsidies to fund operations, again from money that our government will have to borrow, or print, with no hope of any end. That is the something that will get started.

[Railway Man]

Interest in discussing railways is waning.

RWM

[CGW]

Railway Man

Interest in discussing railways is waning.

RWM

I guess that is the sign of the times we live in.  I seeing a common trend that most railroad discussions now days dead end into politics.

Jeff

[Modelcar]

.....Yes, politics....I'll take it no farther.

[greyhounds]

Railway Man

Interest in discussing railways is waning.

RWM

Seems to me that discussing how a proposed railway service is to be funded is "discussing railways."

[garyla]

Park-and-ride from the FAR side of Cajon Pass?   Already a loser.  It's not easy running trains over the mountains (don't we know!), but making L.A.-area drivers do the toughest 1/3 of the Las Vegas run before getting out of their cars just doesn't cut it.

Mag-lev?  Someday, maybe, but we shouldn't hold our breath.  These exciting concepts are fun to contemplate and explore, but don't necessarily become the practical solution for problems.  I rode the Disneyland monorail back about 1956, and that then-futuristic mode hasn't quite taken over public transportation yet either.

[CGW]

Are they proposing a entirely new line or upgrading a existing route for high speed service?

Jeff

[Railway Man]

Prior economic planning, preliminary engineering and permitting documents proposed shared, upgraded infrastructure with existing freight railways.  I don't know if that's still the plan.  An all-new line of course solves some problems of using an existing right-of-way, but creates others.  If transportation service results matter more than cost, then a new alignment is often preferable. Cost includes not only the raw construction dollars, but also land acquisition, permitting, legal challenges, regulatory challenges, and political challenges, all of which are usually more expensive and more time-consuming for a new right-of-way.

RWM

[Modelcar]

....No it sure hasn't, but it is just about the most efficient way to move people within the confines of {Disney World}....They have moved millions of people around and in and out of the Disney complex in Florida.  Monorail, of course, not Mag-lev.

Although there is a Mag-lev "ride" within the Florida complex.

Personally, I believe a monorail system would serve very efficiently if one was available from the Orlando airport to the Disney complex.

[Maglev]

This actually was a FRA-proposed maglev corridor, and indeed with a major commitment from the hotels, it might be economically feasible (maglev's cost is comparable to new corridor, true high-speed rail).  How about making the terminal at Disneyland--leave the kids there while the parents go play the slots? 

Honestly, it is time to think outside the box of "we can't afford it."  The reality is that we can't afford Vegas, but we do it anyway.  Many apsects of public surface transportation can have a multitude of economic and social benefits, yet it is viewed as something more painful than a nasty gambling debt (aka bankrupt Highway Trust Fund).

[Los Angeles Rams Guy]

CGW

Are they proposing a entirely new line or upgrading a existing route for high speed service?

Jeff

Jeff, I'm not sure but IF, if they were REALLY serious about doing SOMETHING, then the powers that be would get together with Union Pacific and start serious discussions about what it would take to have their mainline upgraded to handle 110-115 mph passenger trains.  It's as simple as that.  I'm always LMAO at the zealots who think that totally brand-new infrastructure is going to be built for "high-speed" service.  Ain't gonna happen. 

[diningcar]

Los Angeles Rams Guy

CGW

Are they proposing a entirely new line or upgrading a existing route for high speed service?

Jeff

Jeff, I'm not sure but IF, if they were REALLY serious about doing SOMETHING, then the powers that be would get together with Union Pacific and start serious discussions about what it would take to have their mainline upgraded to handle 110-115 mph passenger trains.  It's as simple as that.  I'm always LMAO at the zealots who think that totally brand-new infrastructure is going to be built for "high-speed" service.  Ain't gonna happen. 

  I believe the design concept is to use some BNSF ROW between Victorville and Barstow and then I-15 ROW to LV.

However BNSF has plans for their ROW to build a third main track from its current end near Hesperia to Barstow. Since UP has trackage rights over this area their freight trains along with BNSF's will make it very difficult to intermingle high speed rail, especially through Barstow where BNSF's line from the SF Bay joins the TRANSCON.

If we are concerned about the need for HSR where if has the most positive affect on jobs and the economy then LA to LV should be well down on the list. 

[greyhounds]

Maglev

Honestly, it is time to think outside the box of "we can't afford it."  The reality is that we can't afford Vegas, but we do it anyway. 

Well, "Let's Pretend" was fun when I was a kid.  It kinda tends to get people in trouble when they play it as adults.  A sane adult will only "Do Vegas" if they can afford to "Do Vegas".   Otherwise, they'll get in money trouble. (The last time I  "Did Vegas" was in August, 2008.  I lost $55 at the tables in five days.  And I was playing pretty gosh darn regularly.  "Let's Pretend" in Vegas is a bad road to go down.)

Thinking outside the box when it comes to money is a very bad idea.  It's like there's this toy you want (A high speed train to Las Vegas.) and you want to pretend there's money to get it.  There isn't.  You can't have it.  It cost too much.  We can't afford it.

 

[PNWRMNM]

Seems to me that when Hussein's $8 billion passenger train bill passed the Democrats fell all over themselves to assure us it had nothing to do with this route.  Now SURPRISE, SURPRISE it is listed.

Those of you who think that railroads and politics ought not mix have not been paying attention.  Railroads have been political ever since Baltimore started one to compete with the Erie canal.

Mac

[Maglev]

My fantasies are tempered by the reality of a nation where there isn't even one train a day connecting Los Angeles, Las Vegas, and Denver.  Without support for a national rail network, we will eternally be playing catchup when "long distance" routes become "corridors."  I think New York State is having this problem now, insisting that the Empire corridor is an Amtrak responsibility; and I guess the Adirondack is threatened. 

http://www.vancouversun.com/travel/Scenic+train+route+between+Montreal+peril/1752306/story.html

Why is Boston to Montreal via Concord on the HSR map?  Is there really any talk of developing that route?  It would be scenic and fun, but why all of a sudden?

[htgguy]

Maglev

My fantasies are tempered by the reality of a nation where there isn't even one train a day connecting Los Angeles, Las Vegas, and Denver.  Without support for a national rail network, we will eternally be playing catchup when "long distance" routes become "corridors."  I think New York State is having this problem now, insisting that the Empire corridor is an Amtrak responsibility; and I guess the Adirondack is threatened. 

http://www.vancouversun.com/travel/Scenic+train+route+between+Montreal+peril/1752306/story.html

Why is Boston to Montreal via Concord on the HSR map?  Is there really any talk of developing that route?  It would be scenic and fun, but why all of a sudden?

Thanks for the link. The numbers in the story are clear-$5,000,000 annual subsidy by the State of New York, 112,000 riders. That's $44.64 per rider on a train where a one way ticket end to end costs $62. Taxpayers are kicking in a pretty substantial portion of the operating cost for this train. 

And that is just the state subsidy-how much federal money is going toward keeping this train alive?

This is not indicative of there being a high demand for an exensive new HSR route here. "It would be scenic and fun" seems to be the way decisions to spend government dollars are being made.

Cutting the time by 2.5 hours will double ridership? At what ticket price? More goes into that formula than just transit time. What would ridership be if ticket prices covered expenses?

I don't understand the lack of logic in many of these proposals.

[Railway Man]

PNWRMNM

Seems to me that when Hussein's $8 billion passenger train bill passed the Democrats fell all over themselves to assure us it had nothing to do with this route.  Now SURPRISE, SURPRISE it is listed.

Those of you who think that railroads and politics ought not mix have not been paying attention.  Railroads have been political ever since Baltimore started one to compete with the Erie canal.

Mac

 

Who is Hussein?

RWM

[Maglev]

Sorry, I brought up three different routes.  LA to Vegas seems like a no-brainer; but the train that would be "fun and scenic" is the Boston-Concord-Montreal route.  Any comments out there?  Why such a new venture, instead of a proven market like Vegas or Florida?    

[Railway Man]

htgguy

Maglev

My fantasies are tempered by the reality of a nation where there isn't even one train a day connecting Los Angeles, Las Vegas, and Denver.  Without support for a national rail network, we will eternally be playing catchup when "long distance" routes become "corridors."  I think New York State is having this problem now, insisting that the Empire corridor is an Amtrak responsibility; and I guess the Adirondack is threatened. 

http://www.vancouversun.com/travel/Scenic+train+route+between+Montreal+peril/1752306/story.html

Why is Boston to Montreal via Concord on the HSR map?  Is there really any talk of developing that route?  It would be scenic and fun, but why all of a sudden?

Thanks for the link. The numbers in the story are clear-$5,000,000 annual subsidy by the State of New York, 112,000 riders. That's $44.64 per rider on a train where a one way ticket end to end costs $62. Taxpayers are kicking in a pretty substantial portion of the operating cost for this train. 

And that is just the state subsidy-how much federal money is going toward keeping this train alive?

This is not indicative of there being a high demand for an exensive new HSR route here. "It would be scenic and fun" seems to be the way decisions to spend government dollars are being made.

Cutting the time by 2.5 hours will double ridership? At what ticket price? More goes into that formula than just transit time. What would ridership be if ticket prices covered expenses?

I don't understand the lack of logic in many of these proposals.

 

You need to compare to the costs of the no-build case to determine if the subsidy is more costly than the avoided cost of building and maintaining more highways, etc.  The no-build case would be public record.

By law, federal funds in the ARRA cannot be used for operation and maintenance costs of a HSR corridor, only for capital expenditures such as construction, equipment, design, permitting, etc.

RWM

[Modelcar]

PNWRMNM

Seems to me that when Hussein's $8 billion passenger train bill passed the Democrats fell all over themselves to assure us it had nothing to do with this route

"Hussein".....??  Don't you think it would be better to keep this kind of politics out of the discussion.....

[tomikawaTT]

Fascinating discussion, especially to someone who, unlike most of the posters here, actually lives in the Las Vegas valley.

Reality check time:

• The casinos aren't interested in spending a lot of THEIR money on something that won't produce immense profit by nightfall.
• The local media consider the whole idea a joke, if they mention it at all.  (Most of them don't.)
• I-15 has recently been widened to three lanes each way, and isn't even thinking about being as congested as (fill in urban freeway or toll road of choice.)
• The I-15 profile isn't conducive to high speed operation - there is one heck of a hump just south of the NV/CA border that has, and needs, special truck lanes so the 18-wheelers roaring along in low-low can stay out of the way of vehicles with better power-to-weight ratios.
• Park-and-ride makes sense for a commuter traveling from his home to his job.  It doesn't make sense for a vacationer traveling several hundred miles and crossing into another state in search of entertainment.

 

This sounds like a poison pill to be used when the time comes to put our (tax) money where their mouth is.  I can see the headline - LAS VEGAS RAIL LINK DEFEATED!  Maybe nobody will notice that what sank was the whole ship, not just the figurehead.  (Translation - quietly scrap the whole HSR idea, then CYA by pointing to the boondoggle that shouldn't have been part of it in the first place.)

Chuck (Clark County, NV)