I was sitting at work today staring at my calendar and daydreaming, Any how this month features the B&O "Yellowstone" 2-8-8-4. This was clearly big steam at the end of the era. I began to wonder, how many other roads used such big steam on the east side of the big river?
choochoobuff I began to wonder, how many other roads used such big steam on the east side of the big river?
I'm sure you will find responses relating to at least: N&W....C&O....B&O....Pennsylvania....WM to mention a few without going into specific models....which I'm sure others will fill in.....
Quentin
Clinchfield. DMIR. I'm not so sure that NYC didn't have an articulated or two in special service.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Several come immediately to mind. The largest would be C&O's Alleghenys, which some claim were bigger than the Big Boys (but not I). Pennsy's Q2 4-4-6-4s were just 9000 lbs lighter than B&O's EM-1, but with only five driving axles produced nearly 8000 horsepower. That qualifies as big. PRR's S1, with tender, topped one million pounds and was so big it couldn't run on some parts of their system. N&W, of course, had a fleet of 2-8-8-2s side by side with a fleet of 2-6-6-4s. Between them they held off the diesel for years after other steamers succumbed. Speaking of 2-6-6-4s, Seaboard's were among the largest engines in the south.
In earlier years, Erie had Triplexes which were slow, but massively powerful. Buffalo, Rochester and Pittsburgh ran Mallets of the 2-8-8-2 and 2-6-6-2 variety. Many of them lasted until the end of steam as part of the B&O.
I'll bet others can come up with more.
Define big steam. Virtually all major roads had 4-8-4's for instance. The D&H had thier Challengers and the Erie had a group of big engines of which the Matt Shay in pusher service out of Susquehanna, PA, was most famous. As mentioned, the B&O, C&O, PRR, WM all had thier share of big steam, too, but in general, if there was coal or iron and big grades, then there were big steam, too.
The west has big spaces and big mountains, thus had big engines where and when needed. Likewise, the east had big engines when and where needed. Maybe the mountains weren't as big but there certainly were many with lots of tons to be moved over them.
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henry6 Define big steam. Virtually all major roads had 4-8-4's for instance. [snip]
Henry's right. But if we say that big steam here means a modern articulated like the B&O's EM class, it's almost as interesting to me to see who didn't have them, though they might seem to have had a need or use for them. Here's my list (subject to correction, 'cause it's early on a Sat. morning): RDG, LV, CNJ, L&NE, B&M, B&A, NH (no major grades, though), Erie, DL&W, various regionals in western PA (B&LE, P&LE, P&S, etc.), NKP (?), NYC, PRR, SOU, ACL (?), others ?
- Paul North.
We would include the DM&IR and their wonderful M-Class Yellerstones.
What about the BIGGEST OF THE BIG engines, the C&O H8 2-6-6-6 Allegheney. Had 1000 more drawbar horsepower than the Big Boy's.
tpatrick mentioned the H-8 in his post higher up.
-Crandell
tpatrick:
The Alleghenny was not bigger, but was more powerful as I stated above. It was shorter, but with that gigantic firebox (that is why they needed a six wheel trailing truck to support it), and the lower gearing, it could out pull the big boy's. It was designed to haul coal out the mountains, not race across the open plains of wyoming. They would normally put 100 to 120 100 ton hoppers behind one, and it would pull the train without assistance.
I had read the opposite...that the C&O largely misused the H-8 as a high tonnage coal drag engine when it was meant for faster freight. I guess it is a testament for the Company that they still got good use of them.
igoldberg tpatrick: The Alleghenny was not bigger, but was more powerful as I stated above. It was shorter, but with that gigantic firebox (that is why they needed a six wheel trailing truck to support it), and the lower gearing, it could out pull the big boy's. It was designed to haul coal out the mountains, not race across the open plains of wyoming. They would normally put 100 to 120 100 ton hoppers behind one, and it would pull the train without assistance.
A Big Boy had a starting tractive effort of 135,375#, an H-8 had a starting tractive effort of 110,200# ( both figures from wikipedia) An H-8 would not "Outpull" a Big Boy. A Big Boy, could start a heavier train than an H-8 could, but with the higher drawbar horse power at speed, the H-8 could haul the heaviest train that it could start faster than a Big Boy would handle the same train.
The Big Boy had higher Tractive Effort, the H-8 had higher Horsepower at speed, if you can't start it, you can't utilize your horsepower.
Also from wikipedia regarding the H-8:
The locomotive was designed for the 0.57% grade eastbound between White Sulphur Springs, WV, and Allegheny, VA, with loaded coal trains. One was set on the front, and another at the back, of typically 100 car coal trains, from Hinton, WV, up full throttle from out of White Sulphur Springs (a resort) to the top. Coal cars in the early 50's were 100,000 lb (45.4 t) nominal capacity, 169,000 lb (76.7 t) maximum gross loaded weight.[3] These locomotives also handled trains less spectacularly in Ohio.
According to that, they used two H-8s, not a single, unassisted. That is what my quick research finds, I wasn't there.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
While the H-8 could not start as heavy of a train as the Big Boys could, the N&W classes Y5-6b, in SIMPLE with a tractive effort rating of 152,206#, could start a heavier train than the Big Boys. The Y classes could not run at high speeds in Simple operation. They were later developed to operate at speeds of around 50 MPH.
As with almost anything, there are trade offs, the Y's could start a heavy train, but sacrificed speed. The H-8 had higher horsepower at speed, at the cost of starting tractive effort. The Big Boys had high tractive effort, and speed capabilities up to 80 MPH, but with their smaller diameter boilers, and smaller grate areas, as well as burning a lower grade of coal than the H-8s, they did not have the steaming capacity to handle the heaviest trains that they could start, at the fastest speed that they were able to run.
Each were designed for a different use, in different regions, and I don't think that anyone can say that any of the three were not Good Locomotives for what they were used for, all were considered "Successful designs" by their respective roads.
The Alleghenies (and Virginian's Blue Ridge 2-6-6-6s) were the heaviest reciprocating steam locomotives ever built which is one definition of "biggest"......the dispute IIRC is whether the 2-6-6-6 or the Big Boy were the most powerful.
As far as Eastern Big Steam operators I think it's incorrect to confine the definition to just articulated locomotives, most.4-8-4s and 2-10-4s would qualify in my book.
Let's not forget Deleware & Hudson who rostered both Dual Service 4-8-4s and the third largest fleet(40 engines) of 4-6-6-4 Challengers....
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
Paul_D_North_Jr Henry's right. But if we say that big steam here means a modern articulated like the B&O's EM class, it's almost as interesting to me to see who didn't have them, though they might seem to have had a need or use for them. Here's my list (subject to correction, 'cause it's early on a Sat. morning): RDG, LV, CNJ, L&NE, B&M, B&A, NH (no major grades, though), Erie, DL&W, various regionals in western PA (B&LE, P&LE, P&S, etc.), NKP (?), NYC, PRR, SOU, ACL (?), others ? - Paul North.
That was true until the NKP leased the Wheeling & Lake Erie in 1949. The W&LE owned some 2-6-6-2s that they used in the coal fields. Go to this link:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/wle/wle-s8004vaa.jpg
Mike
The Big Boy's were the biggest but the Alleghennies were the most powerful.
Lets not forget the BIG looser in big engines the Erie 2-8-8-8-2 Triplex. Could not keep up enough steam run for very long. A real DOG!!!. They did not last very long and were cut up into 2-8-8-2's and 2-8-0's.
igoldberg The Big Boy's were the biggest but the Alleghennies were the most powerful. Lets not forget the BIG looser in big engines the Erie 2-8-8-8-2 Triplex. Could not keep up enough steam run for very long. A real DOG!!!. They did not last very long and were cut up into 2-8-8-2's and 2-8-0's.
The Erie Triplexes were not cut down as mentioned, they remained intact. However the VGN Triplex (a 2-8-8-8-4) did get cut down as described.
Alleghenies.....Big Boys....! Too much time has passed to declare an overall winner in the "biggest" categories...The discussions of such always seem to have their backers on "each side".
Early in its career, the first Triplex was tested, pulling a 250 car train 23 miles from Binghamton to Susquehanna. With the dynamometer car the total train weight was 17,912 tons. The Matt Shay proceeded, reaching a maximum speed of 14 mph and a drawbar pull measured at 130,000 lbs. At some point the train parted and ground to a halt. Erie learned a lesson. The Triplex was put into pusher service because it was so powerful it tended to yank drawbars from freight cars. The first Triplex was considered so successful that Erie ordered two more.
The Triplexes were built 1914 - 15, and served until 1927, when the arrival of Berkshires freed Erie's fleet of 2-10-2s for helper service. That is well over a decade of useful life, hardly the record of a loser.
One design flaw of the P-1 (Erie's designation for the 2-8-8-8-2) was that half of its steam exhausted out the tailpipe of the tender and thus was not available for draft. When working hard she was always gasping for air. Overall, Erie was pleased with its Triplexes. Their lives were cut short not so much because of their inabilities, but by the sea change brought about by the new "superpower" concept embodied in their revolutionary Alco and Lima 2-8-4s.
Enjoyed the banter on what is BIG. I tell my grandson the #4017 sitting inside at the Green Bay National Railroad museum is his Train. When his dad gets a place at the house to put it we will bring it home.My vote is BigBoy. It seemed to accomplish the goal of a LARGE engine in all areas of need.
Maybe not # 1 in all categories but placed well in ALL categories. It was a Locomotive that did many things in a wider area accross the States
I read an article in Trains about the Wyomings. Lehigh Valley Railroad created the 4-8-4 in a heavier version and called them Wyomings. Used primarily out east. Old issues are worth their weight in gold. I seem to always have 3-5 open and reading.
If I could heave any loco it would be the BigBoy. Often imitated never duplicated.
Brad Busse
Walkin' the Rails
N&W classes Y5-6b, in SIMPLE with a tractive effort rating of 152,206#, could start a heavier train than the Big Boys. . . . They were later developed to operate at speeds of around 50 MPH.
Actually, most of N&W's Y-5, Y-6, Y-6a, and Y-6b 2-8-8-2 got improved in the early 1950's, with the resulting measured tractive effort coming to about 166,000 lbs. This was, of course, in simple operation, for starting heavy trains, and that TE was only good up to about 5 mph. The only successful steam locomotives with higher tractive efforts were the Virginia AE 2-10-10-2's (176,000 lbs).
And the Y-6's were designed from the start for 50-55 mph. That was not a later development. The later development was the Y-6b firebox / boiler and various improvements, which in increased the drawbar power from 4400 hp at 20 mph to 5600 hp at 25 mph. (And the VGN AE's ran more like 10 mph.)
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