EMP (containers)

[rluke]

Does anyone know what EMP stands for. I saw that UP has an Equipment Management Program. Is this related to the EMP containers? Thanks

[RABEL]

That's it. The program/containers being shared with numerous Railroads.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

UP and Norfolk Southern (only) - others are apparently only "agents".  See the UP's "EMP Domestic Container Program" webpage at:

  http://www.uprr.com/customers/intermodal/emp/index.shtml 

I looked in the Glossary for "EMP", but it did not say anything about "Equipment Management Program" (although that certainly makes sense as to its origin as an acronym).  It also listed some more of the agent railroads. 

Thanks for asking - I wasn't aware that EMP was railroad-run.

- PDN.

[oltmannd]

It started out on NS, UP and Conrail.  It is a pool of containers that were put in place to get the IMCs and other 3rd parties to convert from RR owned trailers to containers.  The roads put in a reservation system for the containers so that the fleet could be more efficiently managed.  The RR controlled trailer business had lousy economics and this was an attempt to improve that line of business.  Stacking plus the reservation system were supposed to help a great deal.

It didn't work out quite like planned.  NS and Conrail jumped in with both feet, but UP only went half way.  They primarily used the containers for certain lanes of exisiting auto parts (I think...) and didn't really let their share become free running.

BNSF stayed out and later did their own thing with HUB.  CSX let the way with the NACS pool (which has since folded?)

I'm not certain if EMP still functions as was originally intended these days or not.

[bubbajustin]

Whenever I rail fan in Lafayette, and a NS intremodal comes through, there is uaslly an EMP container in there somwhere.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Well, from browsing around the EMP site a little bit, all of the statements and repesentations seem as if it is trying to work generally as Don outlined above.  It does seem as if there is a pool of them, and there are several different "priorities" of reservation available, from "Standby" to "Blue Streak".  There's also a map of its extensive network of terminals on all of the Class I's except BNSF and CSX.

Although, it does read to me more as "rent-a-container" than anything to do with the line-haul of it when loaded or "double-stack train" economics - the site even says that the billing for the container is separate from the line-haul.  One clear and beneficial advantage of that is to reward shippers and their customers who load, empty, and release the containers promptly.

- Paul North.

P.S. - "IMC" = Intermodal Marketing Company (see the Glossary)

[t.winx]

 If you guys have ever railfanned NS or UP you should notice EMP. They are as visible as JBHunt on BNSF.

 I don't see NACS around anymore but I remember hearing they were owned by most RR's. CSX has their own containers, and also uses Pacer Stacktrain.

 I just started noticing HUB Group containers on UP too...so I think that all the big 4 use HUB now?

[rluke]

Thank you for all of the repies. RL

[miniwyo]

 I see quite a few EMP containers here. There is a Church & Dwight plant out at one of the Trona mines and they make the product and load it in the containers and truck it to Green River where they load it on to the well cars.

 For those of you who don't know, Church and Dwight is the parent company that produces Arm and Hammer products.....

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

RJ -

Thats interesting !  I presume those are the usual box-type containers ?  Any idea of the length/ size ?

Reason I ask, is that has to be one of the few intermodal moves of a raw granular mineral product in containers.  Think about it - does anyone ship coal, potash, any ore, or any rock or stone, in any type of container ?  (garbage is a little different)

Also, any idea where they're being shipped to - the length of the move(s) ?  Just curious.

Thanks in advance.

- Paul North.

[CShaveRR]

I suspect that anything loaded into containers is already bagged or boxed, not bulk.

In the past couple of months I've seen some new green containers for both EMP and Hub Group. If I remember correctly, more than one manufacturer or container design is involved.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Coincidentally - at the trivia level - one went by me on my in to work this morning, EB on I-78 at about Mile 60: EMHU (or EPHU ?) 245640, if I remember correctly. 

[kolechovski]

This reminds me of something.  Sometimes empty cars are marked with the abbreviation EMT on data sheets.  Why is the E used?  Wouldn't MT be a more suitable abbreviation for empty?

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Maybe ecause "MT" could also stand for "Mountain Time" zone, MonTana, and perhaps some other things ?

I've also seen it - in other contexts (empty cutting torch gas cylinders) as "MTY".

Our best source on this will be someone who works with those often, such as Carl.

- PDN.

[AgentKid]

CShaveRR

I suspect that anything loaded into containers is already bagged or boxed, not bulk.

Actually, I heard of a proposal here in Alberta several years ago where there was a plan to ship grain in bulk in containers to far inland destinations in China. There would be a machine that sounded like a variation of the kind of thing you hear about in the coal business. It would turn and hold a container on end, fill it, then cover the open end with the 21st century equivalent of a boxcar grain door, and then they would close the hinged doors.

It was hoped that by doing it this way, they could reduce pilferage problems encountered at China's seaports, before bulk shipped grain ever got inland. I've not heard anything recently about this, so I don't know if it proved unworkable or was a victim of the current economic situation.

AgentKid

 

[miniwyo]

Paul,

Carl is correct, the goods are processed and packaged. General Chemical produces the material (Soda Ash), Then it moves next door to the Church and Dwight who then processes it into their Arm and Hammer Products, where they are packaged and shipped. Here is an ariel photo of the area.

General Chemical also produces soda ash in bulk that is shipped via covered hopper as pretty much all the mines do.

 

[CShaveRR]

Thanks, Little Wyoming!

Re: empties.

On our switch lists, empties are denoted by the letter "E." At the end of the list, the summary shows "Lds" and "Mtys."

Now in the old days, when we had to quickly write down what kind of car was going where, if you got a track destination of just a number, the car was understood to be a load. An empty car was prefixed by an "X", such as "X34" These codes were also written out on the IBM punch cars that were affixed to the cars for visual tracing through the yard. Everybody knew that back then; nobody else remembers it any more.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

RJ - Thanks for the details and the link.

I'll be out in NE Idaho and Yellowstone next week - may get over towards Laurel the last weekend of May - itinerary & schedule is highly unstructured ! 

- PDN.

[Railway Man]

CShaveRR

I suspect that anything loaded into containers is already bagged or boxed, not bulk. In the past couple of months I've seen some new green containers for both EMP and Hub Group. If I remember correctly, more than one manufacturer or container design is involved.

 

Lots and lots of grain, lumber, wood chips, scrap metal, scrap paper and cardboard, and plastic pellets is loaded into containers with no bags whatsoever.  There are two ways to load the grain in.  One is to tilt the container, fill it up, and close the doors.  The other way is to put in a hausgemacht (home-made) grain door using 2x4s and plywood, and blow the grain over the top of the grain door, then close the steel doors.  Most receivers insist on the grain door because they don't have the ability to tilt the container at their end, and they don't want to spilll out when they open the steel doors.

RWM

[Railway Man]

AgentKid

CShaveRR

I suspect that anything loaded into containers is already bagged or boxed, not bulk.

Actually, I heard of a proposal here in Alberta several years ago where there was a plan to ship grain in bulk in containers to far inland destinations in China. There would be a machine that sounded like a variation of the kind of thing you hear about in the coal business. It would turn and hold a container on end, fill it, then cover the open end with the 21st century equivalent of a boxcar grain door, and then they would close the hinged doors.

It was hoped that by doing it this way, they could reduce pilferage problems encountered at China's seaports, before bulk shipped grain ever got inland. I've not heard anything recently about this, so I don't know if it proved unworkable or was a victim of the current economic situation.

AgentKid

 

 

There's already lots of grain shipped in containers.  But it is a volatile, unpredictable, opportunistic business.  The first defect is that grain is a backhaul movement in an empty container that came from Asia loaded with consumer goods or auto parts or something.  The grain can never pay enough for a head-haul movement in the container because when its price gets that high, then the bulk ships come out of the copper ore, rubber, bauxite, and iron ore trade, and move grain instead.  So the business is only feasible as long as there are containers going back empty, i.e., a really booming import economy. 

Second defect is that loaded containers coming from Asia don't go to places like Huron, South Dakota, or Biggar, Saskatchewan, to disgorge their loads of auto parts and tennis shoes.  They go to big cities.  That creates a major cost hurdle for backhaul of grain in containers -- either the grain has to go the city (or the port) and transload into the container, or the empty container has to go to the grainbelt, which means a lot of empty miles for the container (and an intermodal facility at the grain loading point) or the covered hopper loaded with the grain has to go to the big city or the port. 

Third defect is the desire to keep the containers turning.  The shipping lines, which own the international containers, do not like to have their containers wander off into the wilderness because they need to keep them moving to keep their costs down, so most of the people who have tried to set up container restuff facilities anyplace other than a port or a big city have never gotten their business beyond the business-plan stage.

Fourth defect is the same problem on the Asian end. The manufacturing is clustered in a very narrow belt along the coasts and around the ports.  The ship lines don't want their containers disappearing into the inland of China or Vietnam, either.  They might never come back; plus, they want them reloaded with the profitable head-haul consumer goods same day, if possible.  And at the ports, there isn't a lot of consumption of animal feed. 

Fifth defect is most of the demand for container-size lots of grain is in places like Vietnam and the Philippines, not China, where the ship lines don't really want to go, because there isn't enough of a headhaul demand.   The big ships that move the trade to the U.S. don't go to the small ports where there's demand for the containerized grain, and a ship-to-ship transload into the smaller feeder ships is expensive.

Overall, the use of containers for grain transportation is a volatile business with nasty external dependencies.  It's not a business you'd want today to make a big investment of fixed plant into, because tomorrow your empty container supply might evaporate.

RWM

[AgentKid]

RWM,

Thank you for your response to my earlier post. It explains very clearly why I haven't heard any more about this venture.

I could report on certain counter-points to some of the defects you list above but that would make this thread political. American readers may not pick up on some of the nuances of Canadian political discourse, but one of the moderator's list's his location as "Vancouver Island BC" and he would fall on us like a ton of bricks. It is something that could be discussed over hot or cold drinks of our choice, but not here and I don't mind that at all.

All I will say is that there are certain entities in this world that don't view

Railway Man

a volatile business with nasty external dependencies

 

as as big an obstacle as perhaps they should.

Railway Man

business-plan

 

Huh?

AgentKid

 

[Railway Man]

 AgentKid:

To me, politics is a "given condition" like the laws of physics.  I don't waste my time ranting about politics just like I don't complain that gravity exists.  I just try to do my best to adapt the needs of the railway to both.  So, if there are differences between U.S. and Canadian politics, that lead to differences in railway economic opportunities or operations or safety, I appreciate knowing about those.

What I've pointed out above are nothing more than general economic aspects of a container restuffing operation.  I'm not arguing for them or against them, I'm just laying out what I know. 

There are exceptions, local idiosyncracies, and governmental policy decisions that can change those economics significantly.  For example, if a local government agency thinks that it is a good idea to build a restuff facility, and tax the local property owners for it, fine with me.  That's their decision.  They've effectively changed the general economic conditions necessary to make a business case for a restuff facility in order to improve the business case for their town or county or port district.  

RWM