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Ed, We've talked about this offline and most of the time we're on the same wavelength but these guys don't care if you hit them hard or if you hit their families hard. Surely the real answer is what we did in Malaysia, you win their hearts and minds and support for the nutters dies - wasn't that the lesson of Vietnam Sorry guys, I'm not American but I sure am proud of the way the British army handles these problems (I suppose the RAF and Navy do some stuff too) You have to remember that rationality is yesterday - if the guy wants to die and take you with him pointing a gun at his head doesn't make him think twice. Lets stick together on this All the best Kev
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