If you had a logo from your favourite railroad (for example, Burlington Northern's 'Speeding B-Shadow N' logo along with it's text), and you wanted to use it comercially, is there any licencing or permission needed? Or is it forbidden since it is a company logo? Can this apply to railroads in the past who have merged away or shut down?
"Look away...look south"
I'm sure more knowledgeable members will offer better answers, but I think it depends on the railroad (long gone vs still operateing). If still operateing then most likely you would have to get a license to use the logo from the license holder. If not then it would depend on weather the current owner maintained the copyright of predesesor companys. Think UP and the model licensing program that ultimately failed and was a public relations fiasco (at least with modelers). Some say that was the motivation behind the "Heritage Fleet".
Anyway, Looking forward to the reply to this thread by more qualified members.
Most copyright/service mark holders license their stuff. Heck, who do you think helps pay those NFL player's outrageous salaries? That NFL licensed beach towel you just bought didn't hurt any. I understand CSX has been doing it for years. UP was completely within their rights, they just got a little overly aggressive.
As Chad suggests, it depends a lot on whether the current owner is still protecting the mark, or even if there is a current owner. F'rinstance, I wouldn't begin to know who to talk to about the NYO&W....
It can do no harm to figure out the lineage of the line, then contact the current operator. Unless they are total curmudgeons, they'll either talk turkey, tell you they don't care, or perhaps point you in the direction of whoever does currently own the mark.
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On the websites of some of the Class Is, I've seen specific pages or links that pertain to this, so if that's one you have in mind I'd start there.
For the "fallen flags", in some cases the current owner/ holder is very protective of it - not that they won't license it for a reasonable fee, but they'll insist that a license be obtained - no "freebies". In other cases, no one has protected / kept the legal rights, and it's in the "public domain".
Good luck at finding the current owner of the rights to the Penn Central's collection of RR's . . .
- PDN.
Definetly you are skating on thin ice, so watch where you are going. Logo's in any form are usually registered trade marks or othewise copyrighted. A lawyer profecient in the field may be necessary to make sure you are completely safe in given instances. UP, for instance, uses the logo's of Union Pacific plus those of its colllective constituency Southern Pacific, Western Pacific, Missouri Pacific, Chicago North Western, and Denver Rio Grande. So you can be pretty sure you would have to go through Omaha if you want to use any of them. But Conrial (still an entity) and its constituants EL (DL&W, E?), CNJ, RDG, LV, L&HR, PC, (NYC, PRR, NH?) are more elusive as some of those companies continuted to exist after the formation of CR but most have disappeared either by changing names, mergers, or disolution. Again, a copyright and or business law lawyer is your best protection. We do know tha CSX and UP got into the licensing of thier respective logos early on and that others have followe suit. And even some of those Fallen Flags may have been confiscated by someone who collects royalties for the sake of collecting royalties..(***, why didn't I think of that sooner!).
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Thank you all for replying, just two last things I forgot to mention:
Colours: If a railroad created a specific colour, can it be used comercially?
Promotional Logos/Colours: For example, the SPSF, would it also be licenced?
Evergreen24 Colours: If a railroad created a specific colour, can it be used commercially?
Colours: If a railroad created a specific colour, can it be used commercially?
Possibly. Or not. F'rinstance, you might have a problem running down to the auto parts store and ordering a gallon of "Michigan State Police Blue."
On the other hand, I don't think anyone owns the rights to the rainbow.
For that matter, you don't necessarily need to specifically duplicate a color - you'd be surprised how appropriate "close" can be.
Story - from a model railroad magazine, although I forget which - A modeler thought he'd be smart. He knew someone who worked at his favorite railroad and managed to secure a small quantity of the actual paint the railroad used, straight from the can.
He used the paint on a model of a locomotive.
Everyone in his railroad club told him it was the wrong color.
Placing the model on the running board of an actual locomotive proved he really had it right, but...
Of course, if you end up licensing, you may have to use the exact color, or at least what appears to be the exact color.
This is an excellent and astute question, less anyone think different. And again I send you to lawyers, etc, to be sure. I know DuPont did produce colors which were used by only one railroad. And I know that a charter bus company in Endicott, NY...Shafer...has a green color which if anyone wants to use has to get permission from them. So, yes, check it out through the trademark and copyright attornies or other specilists.
Paul_D_North_Jr On the websites of some of the Class Is, I've seen specific pages or links that pertain to this, so if that's one you have in mind I'd start there.
That's the approach I would recommend because it's probably the approach that an attorney would take -- and would charge for taking -- if the issue were first presented to the attorney. If you take that approach and are dissatisfied with whatever information you receive from the railroad, you have the option of consulting an attorney and asking for an opinion based on information that you would not have had if you had gone to the attorney before going to the railroad..
F'rinstance - here's the link to BNSF's "Licensee Information" web page:
http://www.bnsf.com/aboutbnsf/license.html
Evergreen24 Promotional Logos/Colours: For example, the SPSF, would it also be licenced?
And if it is - who has it now ?
SF ==> BNSF ? or,
SP ==> UP ?
Thank you all for your replies, however these questions popped into my head.
What if the railroad was seized by the government?
Privization of the railroad?
For example, the RFFSA (Rede Ferroviária Federal S.A.-Federal Railway Network) in Brazil was taken over and dissoluted after the railroad system failed since it lacked profits. Now, if there was a large rail system such as that in the U.S. (that'll have people wondering "what if there really was...?") and it was taken over by the government (Somewhat-like Conrail)
Well...I guess it's more like one question than two.
This might even end up in a magazine to those who would ask a similar question within this forum
Evergreen24 Thank you all for your replies, however these questions popped into my head.
I was under the impression that you needed advice about a specific situation related to a specific railroad. If you're actually interested in a variety of issues related to licensing, I recommend that you do an Internet search for the U. S. Copyright Office. It has a very well organized web site that presents a large amount of useful technical information in an understandable way.
No one can claim trademark on a fallen flag that isn't associated with an operating railroad. UP, as someone mentioned, is an example of this but the main object was controlling use by toy train manufacturers and a calendar publisher.
A few years ago, someone claimed rights on the trademark-expired PRR logo and began selling products with the same and eventually demanded license fees from others who were using it. It ended up in court. The decision was he couldn't claim the logo because he wasn't operating a railroad.
Poppa Zit's post underscores the need for careful and legal investigation before moving ahead with any such project. I was faced with a similar but different situation several years ago when, as head of an organization, it was proposed by several members that video tapes be purchased and duplicated so that we could make money or at least rent out. Even after explaining what copyrights were all about they thought I was lying to them and couldn't see the harm in what they wanted to do. (I left the organization but they never pursued the project). All I am saying is that if you have any plans to make money off something you did not create or do not own, get good legal advice...it may be expensive but it also will be a lot cheaper than the consequences if you don't.
To JayPotter,
Well you are certainly right, and it actually deals with a railroad not even the US. What I wanted to know was how does licencing to a subsidiary in a foreign counrty work? For example, my favourite railroad in Poland, Freightliner PL, is owned by the UK intermodal pioneer, Freightliner Limited.
Now to the rest,
I wanted to use Freightliner PL's logo (which is the lettering) commercially, do I have to go through an attorney, through Freightliner Limited, and then through Freightliner PL?
That's probably my final question.
The front page of today's edition of The Wall Street Journal contains a very interesting account of a trademark dispute. It's entitled "The Scariest Monster of All Sues for Trademark Infringement".
Evergreen24 To JayPotter, Well you are certainly right, and it actually deals with a railroad not even the US. What I wanted to know was how does licencing to a subsidiary in a foreign counrty work? For example, my favourite railroad in Poland, Freightliner PL, is owned by the UK intermodal pioneer, Freightliner Limited. Now to the rest, I wanted to use Freightliner PL's logo (which is the lettering) commercially, do I have to go through an attorney, through Freightliner Limited, and then through Freightliner PL? That's probably my final question.
Most definitely you need legal advice and guidence...to not do so could be suicide!
Evergreen24 I wanted to use Freightliner PL's logo (which is the lettering) commercially, do I have to go through an attorney, through Freightliner Limited, and then through Freightliner PL?
My recommendation is still the same as it was in my posting yesterday. Contact the company first; and determine what its position is. Then decide whether or not to contact an attorney. In other words, if you retain an attorney, the attorney will end up dealing with the company anyway. So if you contact the company initially, you might be able to obtain some useful information; and whatever information you do obtain will cost you nothing. Once you get that information, you can use it to determine whether you need to retain an attorney and, if so, whether it's worth the cost.
The lettering style (font) itself may or may not be copyrighted. What probably is protected is how Freightliner actually assembled it. Sometimes the service mark or name itself may be protected (Should we be putting a TM after Freightliner? Probably.).
Another good thing about working with the trademark/service mark/copyright holder is that sometimes, once you pay a small license fee, they might give you access to a plethora of information on how to use their mark [/i]correctly.[/i]
And you never know. If you're not using it in a commercial application (ie, a kit or model to sell) - they might just help you out and wish you good day besides.
I don't recall seeing that information put forth - is this for personal use or commercial. If it's for personal use, odds are it really doesn't matter anyhow.
Here's the site incase if anyone wants to look it at.
http://www.freightliner.co.uk/default.aspx?PageID=54
Note the logo in the upper left.
Here's a video of one of their JT42CWRM's incase if anyone is interested. Plus, some good quality sound of a V12 710 engine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nx1QC0OqbIM
Licensing agreements referred to here are for operating and not for use of logo...folllow Jay Potter's advice and contact Freightliner officers and then an attorney if needed.
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