Forum Members:
Some time back I became aware of a story that, if true, was very disturbing to me. I read on an aviation forum that during WWII that some military pilots or a military pilot would play a mean trick on locomotive crews. The airplane pilot would locate a train that was under way during night-time or under low light conditions (dusk or dawn) and track it. The pilot then would manuever the airplane so that it would be flying toward the locomotive in the opposite direction and from a good distance away. The pilot would then descend the airplane to very low level above a straight section of track and fly directly toward the locomotive, again as stated above, from a good distance away. As the airplane closed the distance between the locomotive--but still some distance away, the pilot would turn on the landing lights and continue to fly directly toward the locomotive until a collision seemed imminent, then the pilot would abruptly pull up and fly away. The goal, apparently, was to make the locomotive crew jump from the cab in belief that another locomotive was on the track hurtling toward a head-on collision. Has anybody on this forum heard of such an incident?
As an aviation disaster author, I don't really believe the story for a few reasons. The main one being the inherent danger of flying an airplane at high speed at that low altitude under low light conditions. It would be too easy to accidentally fly into the ground. Another reason that I think that this mean stunt is practically un-doable is the fact that many railroad right of ways would have telegraph and telephone poles too near the track to allow this kind of manuevering. It would be too easy to collide with a pole or some railroad equipment during the low light/low altitude manuevering. The stunt would be difficult and very dangerous even during daylight conditions.
Another reason I don't believe it is because I have looked at many thousands of Army Air Forces Aircraft Accident Reports and have not come across any such incident. That does not neccesarily make the story untrue, but if this was a trick that pilots liked to play the odds are that at least one of them would have screwed it up and crashed. If it was a unique story to one individual pilot who succesfully pulled it off, then it makes it much easier for the incident to escape historic scrutiny only to be passed on through the years as an antecdote. If true I am sure that as the pilot grew older (most pilots in training during WWII were in their early 20s or late teens), it would not be something he would be proud of. I just can't believe that one of our pilots would deliberately cause potential serious injury or even death to a train crew in this manner (especially during wartime), not to mention the danger to paying passengers on a runaway train without a crew. Being an aviation disaster author who specializes in WWII aviation accidents, I have become aware of all kinds of aviation horseplay but nothing that matches this level of stupidity, carelessness or just plain meaness.
Has anybody on this forum heard of such a trick? Is there any evidence of a runaway train (freight or passenger) being caused in this manner? Is there any evidence of a train crew being injured or killed because of such antics? Like I said above, I don't much believe it. I am interested in the opinions of the members of this forum. Thanks ahead of time.
Tony Mireles
Anthony J. Mireles
Author
FATAL ARMY AIR FORCES AVIATION ACCIDENTS
IN THE UNITED STATES 1941-1945
...
This is only plausible if the pilot was familiar with the SPECIFIC segment of track and then had the opportunity to encounter a train under the conditions you offer.
All tracks have telephone or power lines crossing wherever the utility company has negotiated with the RR to place them. They are usually no more than 25 feet above top of rail. Additionally there are overpasses for both public vehicles and farm equipment located wherever they are needed. And the RR has their signal system on main lines with signal structures near to or across the tracks. And of coarse mountains, RR bridges and tunnels would have their constraints.
A pilot would have to have found a location where none of these impediments would be encountered for a sufficient distance along the track which would enable the manuvers you describe; and then encounter a train under the conditions described. All of these conditions make your scenerio very, very unlikely.
I agree with all of what you say. That said, I would think long, uninterupted strectches of track would exist during the early 1940s (and even today) in such places as West Texas, Southern New Mexico, Arizona and South Central and South East California---all places where extensive aviation training took place during WWII. But I too believe that the story of these stunts is probably not true.
TonyM.
Sounds like something for Mythbusters to investigate.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I have heard a tale like that from these times. Pilots of either small planes or military fighters doing that cause the landing lights on certain aircraft look like head and ditch lights. But as mentioned getting that low to make it look "real" would endanger the pilot and aircraft.
I think its just some boomer spinnin yarns in the sandhouse.
Yes we are on time but this is yesterdays train
Not a definative answer, but my Dad hired out with the Illinois Central in 1941 before the war began. He stayed with them until early 1944, when he waived his draft exemption for RR employment and enlisted in the Army (seeing extensive combat in France & Germany). I discussed steam-era operations with him many times (and grew up listening to stories from lots of his fellow railroaders) before his passing in 1995, and he never mentioned any problems with airplanes.
Bill
I seriously doubt the story, a low flying plane would be damaged by railroad structures like signals and telegraph poles.
Don't know about playing chicken with trains, but my dad did tell me that in S Dakota the bomber pilots training for low level missions would come back with the prop tips bent over from cruising low over wheat fields.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Well, I know the story to be true because it happened to me.
I was the fireman on C&IM #12, night passenger run out of Peoria with 4-4-0 #501. About this time of year back in '44. We were just south of Ekard when some college boy pilot from Chanute Field over by Rantoul decided to play this game. The hogger and me both jumped and we both landed in the Quiver Creek. I hit my head on a rock and was killed instantly. The hogger, he lived for a while, but then he expired from hypothermia from being in the water at -2 degrees (F not C).
#12 kept going and run off into the river at Havana. Both passengers the rest of the crew survivied. But a carload of hogs we had cut in just ahead of the RPO weren't so lucky. A lot of people in Havana enjoyed roast frozen hog that Christmas.
I didn't get no roast hog. That rock in the Quiver Creek done me in good.
greyhounds: Do you have a CO2 detector in your house?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy Siding greyhounds: Do you have a CO2 detector in your house?
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
You'd have to fly so low to make it beleivable with the headlight. Low enough that you'd risk hitting a signal or something. If the headlight was 30 feet from the ground the crew would wonder.
No. I use a canery.
When I get up in the morning I check to see if he's alive. If I can tell he's alive then I assume I am too.
I then give each of us fresh water and food. (I run my water through this "Folgers" stuff they sell down at the store first.) Then we each start the day. Which one of us is more productive depends on the circumstances.
Been at the Christmas punch a little soon in Antioch, have we?
BOOOOHHHH---GUS !!! I seriously doubt it for 5 more reasons, in addition to those excellent and sufficient ones above:
- The apparent approach speed (= closing rate) would be so fast that it would not be consistent with any other train on the line, in virtually all cases;
- Locomotive headlights at the time were almost always a single bright light (sometimes with much duller and often colored classification lights above and on each side). If the landing lights were in any other configuration, that would have negated the attempted effect. The side-by-side "ditch light" pattern was not in use then - did not start until the 1960's /1970's on the Canadian roads, and then to the US in the late 1980's /early 1990's - so that pattern would not have fooled anyone;
- The loco headlight would have illuminated the plane pretty well - anything bright would have reflected back and again given away the ruse. Alternatively, if the loco was running under "blackout" conditions - visored, shaded, or masked headlight, etc. - the much brighter aircraft lights would have given it away;
- Even if the crew had jumped, they would have put the train brake into full emergency before doing so, so there would not have been any runaway trains. Also, that would have shaken up the rest of the train - conductor & brakeman &/ or flagman in the caboose on freights, crew and passengers on passenger, etc. - that inquiries would have been made;
- The engine crew would have complained to at least their brothers in the union, and probably also to their immediate line management. From what I know of that generation, none of them would have tolerated that kind of nonsense, especially not in wartime - even if it was military pilots - and it would have come to the attention of military officials and stopped immediately. Maybe it was a "one-of" attempt which ws handled informally - hence no written record - and has since morphed into an "urban legend", but certainly it was not frequent.
Back in the 1960's/ 1970's Trains published a couple photos taken from low-flying military jets. I'm certain one was in New Zealand from a RAF jet - "You look very good, but have a spot on your wing. - Glendinning, Driver of the Kingston Flyer", and another of Santa Fe's Super C (I think) from a Voodoo photo-recon plane, but both of those were in daylight and from at least several hundred feet of altitude.
Finally, a prize of some sorts has to go to greyhounds for his inspired piece of fiction above. Should we start a "Tall Tales" thread here ? That one would be hard to beat, though.
Season's Greetings to all.
- Paul North.
As a student of the Second World War, I have read references to these kinds of shennanigans, but never any proof. I believe one reference is made to such behavior in Black Sheep Squadron by Greg "Pappy" Boyington, but I would have to pull the book out and find it. One thing about Boyington, is that he was a pathological liar, and if it referenced in his book, then chances are it is false.
Just looking at photos of rail lines back at that time, both sides of the ROW were festooned with telegraph poles, and I can't see how a fighter plane, even the tiny Brewster Buffalo, which was employed as a training aircraft for awhile, would be able to get down low enough to pull off such a stunt.
As I sit here and think about this, I will have to see if I have any material on this, I know I have read about it, but I have not ever read any definitive proof that such behavior took place.
One other behavior that I had read about, and it took place in England more so than over here, was the mock strafing of trains. Pilots would find a train moving along the tracks, and practice strafing runs on the moving train, sometimes un-nerving the crews, but I had never heard of any train crews jumping from the moving locomotive.
Possibly, the story came from the fact that when trainee pilots were out on navigation excercises, if they got lost, or were unsure of their position, they would fly low, locate a rail line, and follow it, and it would generally lead them either home, or to another reference point, or landmark so they could figure out their posiition, and then complete their excercise. It goes withoug saying that back in those days, alot of navigating over land was done by "dead reckoning" or locating land marks, LORAN, intertial navigation, and etc. didn't really exist. Some work was done using "locator beacons" on certain radio frequencies, but I am not sure how common that was. One of the reasons barns and silos were painted the red and white checkerboard was for that reason, so a pilot could recognize land marks close to his training field.
I will have to do some digging on these stories, and see what I come up with.
The aviation cartoon book There I Was by Stevens (published in the 1970's) has this story listed as one of the oldest "no s---" fables around. I'll have to dig it out tonight and give you the exact citation
Don't know if they were playing "Chicken" with the railroad (we always thought the Air Force was doing kamikaze raids and missed La Junta):
There is an Air Force installation at the former La Junta Army Airfield, now La Junta Municipal Airport, that is an electronic bombing range. One of the exercises involves low level bombing runs. The Arkansas River runs parallel to the BNSF (Old ATSF Northern Transcon). At a place called Casa (beginning of CTC 2MT into La Junta), there are several dams in the river for irrigation purposes that are home to LARGE flocks of geese, ducks, gulls, grouse and all other kinds of birds. Problem is, jet engines don't do very well when they suck in the geese and ducks. Train crews have watched the fowl do-in an F-111b, a B-52 and a track supervisor (Maggie Baca, Sr. - I heard his "emergency" call on the radio) hi-railing his territory saw a B1B nose into the limestone bluffs south of Casa . (I've been told an HC-130 on daisy-cutter practice almost got the same treatment, but 4 props are better than jet engine fans)....
As with so many 20th century myths or "urban legends" this one goes back to a movie; actually a 12-part serial called "Hurricane Express" starring John Wayne in the early thirties. I bought a copy IIRC 99 cents or $1.99 in a VHS bargain-bin back in the eighties.
Trains are crashing on the railroad because the crew either jumps or puts the train into emergency (causing a derailment) to avoid an oncoming train that somehow vanishes into thin air. When Wayne's father (a RR engineer) is killed, he investigates. He is a professional airplane pilot, and discovers that the phantom "train" is really an airplane that flies towards the oncoming trains with a bright light that mimics a locomotive headlight. The bad guys are causing the accidents to drive down the price of the railroad's stock so their rich boss can buy the road cheap.
Or something like that, it's been a while since I watched it. Take a look for yourself:
Hurricane Express
Quite a while ago, and I can't even recall who described it to me, some jackass in Indiana pulled a tractor onto a rural grade-crossing when s/he could see a train approaching in the distance at night. The idiot turned the tractor so it was facing down the track and then turned-on his headlights. The train crew didn't bail but they did an emergency stop and laid on the horn. The tractor joker pulled off the crossing and beat a "high speed" escape but apparently somebody bragged about it or maybe there were witnesses and the cops caught-up with them as the story went (don't know what their punishment was).
In some parts of IN, especially along the old PRR's Ft. Wayne line, I could see where there'd be enough visibility down the straight-a-way to allow time to pull this kind of prank. On the Ft. Wayne line whatever train it was (PC, CR, CSX?), I doubt the train was going real fast, but Amtrak also used that line for the Broadway Limited into the late 80's.
I was gonna say egg nog, but his story really messed with my head for a few moments and that's all right. I needed a little deviance from reality for a bit. Thanks greyhounds.
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