Early 1950s diesel purchasing decisions

[Lyon_Wonder]

If you were running a class 1 or regional railroad in the early 1950s and skipped out on the dieselization in the 1940s and still using steam for hauling all of your freight, would you order F units or Alco FAs for mainline freight, or would you skip the cab bodies entirely and purchase GP7/9s or Alco hood units?  Of course this doesn’t take passenger trains into account, just freight.   IIRC, most roads dieselized their passenger fleets several years before freight.

[jrbernier]

  Just look at the IC and N&W - they did not dieselize until after 1950 for the most part.

IC - Dieselized passenger service with EMD E's early/  Freight trains basically were dieselized with large orders of EMD GP9's.

N&W - Dieselized mainly with large fleets of GP9's as well(both passsenger & freight).  They were in such a rush when they finally made the decision that they leased E's for a while.  They also sampled other builders road switchers as EMD could not deliver GP9's fast enough.  My understanding that when they wanted to buy the VGN, they found out there very new & impressive fleet of steamers were worth 'scrap prices' to the banks.  They decided to dieselize very fast.

  GP's cost less than a comparable 'covered wagon' - their fate was sealed by economics alone. not to mention their better visability, bi-directional operation, and the ability to change out power assemblies without pulling the entire prime-mover out of the carbody.

Jim

[CShaveRR]

The C&O was another good case study, because it basically dieselized twice separately.  Its Pere Marquette lines gpot diesels for passenger service from 1946 through 1948, then for branchline service they got BL2s.  A couple of years later, when GP7s became available, they got a bunch of those and wiped out all steam in Michigan and Canada (I'm not talking about switchers here; they were some of the first units, as well as some of the last, bought for service on the former PM.

The C&O Proper's first diesels (again, other than switchers), were A-B-A F7 sets ordered in 1949 or thereabouts, followed by a repeat order, for areas away from the coal fields--they had every intention of keeping steam in service there.  In the early 50s, E8s and FP7s took care of all of the mainline passenger service.  By 1952, economics changed, and C&O decided to dieselize all freight operations (again, yard switchers and transfer operations mostly preceded freight in dieselization).  At that point they began ordering GP7s (over 100 of them, including some with steam generators for branchline passenger operations), then GP9s--eventually over 360 of those.  They had a few similar engines from Alco, ordered at roughly the same time, but by 1957 they had all of the diesels they needed.

[Railway Man]

  Just look at the IC and N&W - they did not dieselize until after 1950 for the most part.

IC - Dieselized passenger service with EMD E's early/  Freight trains basically were dieselized with large orders of EMD GP9's.

N&W - Dieselized mainly with large fleets of GP9's as well(both passsenger & freight).  They were in such a rush when they finally made the decision that they leased E's for a while.  They also sampled other builders road switchers as EMD could not deliver GP9's fast enough.  My understanding that when they wanted to buy the VGN, they found out there very new & impressive fleet of steamers were worth 'scrap prices' to the banks.  They decided to dieselize very fast.

  GP's cost less than a comparable 'covered wagon' - their fate was sealed by economics alone. not to mention their better visability, bi-directional operation, and the ability to change out power assemblies without pulling the entire prime-mover out of the carbody.

Jim

Well ... actually you DO change the power assemblies inside the carbody.  That's the way I did it and every one else did it.  It wasn't much fun, of course.  And the price difference wasn't large.

But these points do not in the slightest invalidate your points.  The GP was very much less expensive to maintain because access was vastly better, and was well-suited for any type of service whereas the F was unsuitable for anything but point-to-point.  Your illustration of N&W and IC is spot-on: they had all the luxury of hindsight by waiting to dieselize.

RWM

[tpatrick]

Don't forget Nickel Plate. Their only covered wagons were Alco PA "Bluebirds," passenger units.

[al-in-chgo]

Stuart Saunders' first major executive decision was to dieselize the N&W fleet after he became CEO of the N&W in 1955. 

The General Purpose series was already out, but EMD could not deliver engines in a snap any more than they can today.  The first diesel-electrics replaced the iconic N&W Class "J" locomotives in 1958, which was five years after future partner Southern had dieselized entirely.

I can bear witness to the N&W's use of GP rather than carbodies on its passenger trains.  When I was growing up across the road from the Norfolk's Bristol (TN/VA) - Christiansburg - Roanoke - Lynchburg segment, NB at Bristol The Pelican switched head-end power from E A+B (if they aren't E's they are F's) diesel-electric (Sou) to a mainline EMD N&W--not a carbody, not once they got well installed as long as thru service lasted on the Washington DC - Lynchburg - Bristol - Birmingham route.   The reverse process occurred at Lynchburg VA.  My older cousin remembered clearly the days when Southern would take on/off its "little" (diesel) engine to be replaced on N&W turf by the big (steamer) one. 

OTOH The Birmingham Special's equipment was a direct Southern Rwy run-thru.  I can remember it with the E's running thru N&W territory (in a different post, I think on CLASSIC TRAINS, I talked about my Dad and my visit to NYC taking the train from our little flag-stop village and changing to a GG-1 hauled consist at D.C./Union.  In the very last days pre-Amtrak the Tennessee portion was curtailed, so we were left with the absurd name of "Birmingham Special" for an N&W stub. Nothing on our route at all after Amtrak came in, nothing.  At least the old N&W main had the "Harley Staggers Special" for a while. 

Stuart Saunders, my my my.  I'm sure many readers here know or remember the number he did on PRR and later PC. 

 

[Lyon_Wonder]

I've seen pics of F-units in N&W markings, as well as short nose GP30/35s, but these were likely acquired from the merger with Wabash in the early 1960s.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Virginian was another road that dieselized late.  Considering that they were almost exclusively a low-speed coal hauler, that part is not too surprising.  They dieselized with 38 H16-44's and 25 H24-66's, which definitely simplified the spare parts inventory.  The GE 44-tonner which was acquired second-hand was strictly a shop switcher.  At the same time, VGN upgraded its electrification with a new power plant and replaced the squareheads with four 6800 HP EL-2B's (weighing over 1,000,000 lbs.) and twelve EL-C's.

[carnej1]

 I remember reading a column by Tony Koester in MR a few years back (shortly before he made the decision to retire the Alleghany Midland and build his cuurent NKP layout) where he mentioned the fact that he had wanted to add a small fleet of F units to the AM roster until a friend pointed out that it would not be very prototypical for a road the size of the Midland which was still operating a large amount of Steam Locomotives that late (at that time the era was 1957) in the transition period to have a significant covered wagon fleet. The NKP and N&W examples were sited i.e late dieselisation implies road switchers as the preferred power...

[RudyRockvilleMD]

The B&O, the CB&Q, and the Union Pacific bought diesel locomotives, pre-war for their passenger trains. On the other hand the New Haven, an early buyer of diesels at the beginning of WW-II, bought their Alco Dl-109 cab units mostly for passenger service, but they were also used for freight service between New Haven and Boston at night.

However, during WW-II the War Production Board only permitted the production of freight diesel units, most of which were cab units, but I don't know if any were equipped with steam generators that would let them be used in passenger service.

After WW-II many railroads initially preferred cab units when they initially diselized, but at least one railroad, the D&H, only bought Alco road switchers when they diselized, and they used them both in passenger and freight service. 

[wjstix]

As Tony Koester pointed out a few years back in researching what his free-lance AM line would use, generally the later a railroad began converting, the less likely they were to have F-units. Of course there were exceptions like Erie Mining Company's 1954 purchase of F9's for their new iron ore / taconite line in NE Minnesota, but more typical would be neighbor DMIR who bought a few switchers in 1953 as their first diesels, then bought SD-9's starting in 1955; later they bought SD-18's and SD-38's.

[carnej1]

As Tony Koester pointed out a few years back in researching what his free-lance AM line would use, generally the later a railroad began converting, the less likely they were to have F-units. Of course there were exceptions like Erie Mining Company's 1954 purchase of F9's for their new iron ore / taconite line in NE Minnesota, but more typical would be neighbor DMIR who bought a few switchers in 1953 as their first diesels, then bought SD-9's starting in 1955; later they bought SD-18's and SD-38's.

 True. He also pointed out in the Article that there were a few very large (for the transition era) Class one RRs that both had lots of cab units AND operated significant numbers of Steam engines into the late 50's...he mentioned the C&O but the Pennsy as well as the UP come to mind. The reason offered was that these roads needed a great many units to dieselize and had fairly modern steam power.

[Lyon_Wonder]

As Tony Koester pointed out a few years back in researching what his free-lance AM line would use, generally the later a railroad began converting, the less likely they were to have F-units. Of course there were exceptions like Erie Mining Company's 1954 purchase of F9's for their new iron ore / taconite line in NE Minnesota, but more typical would be neighbor DMIR who bought a few switchers in 1953 as their first diesels, then bought SD-9's starting in 1955; later they bought SD-18's and SD-38's.

 I didn't realize Erie's F-units were original power.  When I first saw a late-1990s picture of Erie running ABBA F-sets, I assumed they got these second-hand since they weren't a major road.  Erie's F9s saw 40+ years of freight service with their original owner, which is remarkable!      

[blue streak 1]

al-in-chgo:

Was not quite that way for dieseling N&W. Before a certain date (don't know) The Tennessean used ALCOA PA4s Bristol-memphis on sou and whatever lynchburg -  Wash. Birmingham special and pelican used FP-As and ocassionally FP-Bs Bristol south. N&W changed out at Bristol and lynchburg with Js (600-615). Also the local milk run north from Bristol. The next day began run through of mostly Es from Washington to south of Bristol with an ocassional F. The PA4s (6900-6905) were essentially retired that day and stored long term at Atlanta's Pegram shops.

[henry6]

By the mid '50's EMD, ALCO and FM had shown the roadswitcher off so well it was a foregone conculsuion that the "covered wagon" was dead.  GP's, RS's and TM's were so versitile, gave engineers great vision in both directions, could have bi directional controls, easier to switch cars enroute as well as in yards, no need to turn unit for return run.  They literally walked away with the market. Notice that F's were no longer being made and the few E9's were the end of the breed.  Road switchers with B-B were doing it all and now you had C-C with more pulling power!  I don't  believe there ever was a C-C coverd wagon, I wonder what one would have look like?  An A-1-A E9 on steroids?

Incidently, didn't N&W inherit most of its F units from the likes of Wabash and other takeovers?

[SSW9389]

The War Production Board relaxed its stance on passenger diesels in early 1945. The first Santa Fe passenger FT and the first E7s were built in February 1945. It is a railfan misnomer that the WPB halted all passenger diesel production during the war as from February 1945 to the end of the war passenger E7 diesels were built by EMD.  

Some freight FT sets were delivered with steam generators in the B units. We had quite a discussion on this forum several years ago about passenger FTs. The steam generators would allow the FTs to be used to haul military Main trains for the War Department.  

The ALCO DL109s you mentioned were dual service units. Passenger by day and freight by night. Besides New Haven, the DL109s were also delivered to Southern and GM&O during the war.  

The B&O, the CB&Q, and the Union Pacific bought diesel locomotives, pre-war for their passenger trains. On the other hand the New Haven, an early buyer of diesels at the beginning of WW-II, bought their Alco Dl-109 cab units mostly for passenger service, but they were also used for freight service between New Haven and Boston at night.

However, during WW-II the War Production Board only permitted the production of freight diesel units, most of which were cab units, but I don't know if any were equipped with steam generators that would let them be used in passenger service.

After WW-II many railroads initially preferred cab units when they initially diselized, but at least one railroad, the D&H, only bought Alco road switchers when they diselized, and they used them both in passenger and freight service. 

[beaulieu]

As Tony Koester pointed out a few years back in researching what his free-lance AM line would use, generally the later a railroad began converting, the less likely they were to have F-units. Of course there were exceptions like Erie Mining Company's 1954 purchase of F9's for their new iron ore / taconite line in NE Minnesota, but more typical would be neighbor DMIR who bought a few switchers in 1953 as their first diesels, then bought SD-9's starting in 1955; later they bought SD-18's and SD-38's.

 I didn't realize Erie's F-units were original power.  When I first saw a late-1990s picture of Erie running ABBA F-sets, I assumed they got these second-hand since they weren't a major road.  Erie's F9s saw 40+ years of freight service with their original owner, which is remarkable!      

 

Make that 50+ as three are still working for successor Cliffs Erie. Right now they are hauling a train of chips and fines back from the dock at Taconite Harbor to the former plant site were it will be transferred and shipped to Severstal at Sparrow's Point, MD. The train is making one round trip a day 4 days per week, but the trips can be cancelled at the last minute. 

[SSW9389]

Stix: Erie Mining F9s were built May-August 1956. If Erie bought its F9s in 1954, why did delivery take so long? They actually post date the first delivery of SD9s #101-109 to the Missabe which were built a couple month previous in March-April 1956. The Missabe's only 1955 SD9 was EMD demo 5591 wihich became DM&IR #110 in 1956.  Hope I didn't confuse you too much with facts. Thanks Andre.

Ed 

As Tony Koester pointed out a few years back in researching what his free-lance AM line would use, generally the later a railroad began converting, the less likely they were to have F-units. Of course there were exceptions like Erie Mining Company's 1954 purchase of F9's for their new iron ore / taconite line in NE Minnesota, but more typical would be neighbor DMIR who bought a few switchers in 1953 as their first diesels, then bought SD-9's starting in 1955; later they bought SD-18's and SD-38's.