In the waving thread, I asked you about your list.
Can you elaborate a little more on what the list is for and what information it deals with?
I only know and see a little about OTR and very little about what the yards are like, so would appreciate some information.
Thanx
Mook
She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw
Mookie wrote: In the waving thread, I asked you about your list. Can you elaborate a little more on what the list is for and what information it deals with? I only know and see a little about OTR and very little about what the yards are like, so would appreciate some information.ThanxMook
I am assuming you are talking about the Risk Assessment. It was a task from fellow employees to see what can be done to improve Situational Awareness. This took into consideration yard, industry, and road operations.
I considered both physical barriers, but also mental ones. We asked what caused an employee to rush to get done as an example. Along with that came behaviors including frustration, and resentments (they both take up a lot of one's mental capacity).
This is an ongoing process.
I was asking more about the list for the cut of cars, but this is equally interesting.
Your "footboard" would be the same as "groundpounders"? People that work on the ground as opposed to maybe - hostlers, dispatchers, and ops crews?
My take is you work around industries. How do you get cooperation between the industries and the railroad? If there is a situation that they must pay to correct, how do you convince them it is in their best interests?
Who does the training for the industries - someone from your railroad? Is it required or something the industries sign on to do to help speed the flow between the two companies?
When you find a problem within the railroad itself, do you give a report to your safety committee?
As I said - this is interesting - at least to me, but I am starting to sound like a talk show host.
Mookie wrote: I was asking more about the list for the cut of cars, but this is equally interesting.
When you pull an elevator, or industry, you make a list of your cars as they stand. Later you order them up in the computer as they stand. The only exception now is HazMat as you cannot touch a car if it is not on your work order and properly billed.
Many a time I would stand in the pouring rain as I pulled a grain train marking a list.
Mookie wrote: Your "footboard" would be the same as "groundpounders"? People that work on the ground as opposed to maybe - hostlers, dispatchers, and ops crews?
The Footboard Yardmaster is one who not only runs the yard, marks the lists, but actually does the switching.
Mookie wrote: My take is you work around industries. How do you get cooperation between the industries and the railroad? If there is a situation that they must pay to correct, how do you convince them it is in their best interests?
Now a days, if the industry wants service, it will provide a safe working environment. 99% of all industry tracks are now owned by the industry, so it is their tab to correct defects. If obvious defects are reported, and not fixed, no service, end of conversation. However, if things have gotten that far, the situation has already gone up the chain of command.
Mookie wrote: Who does the training for the industries - someone from your railroad? Is it required or something the industries sign on to do to help speed the flow between the two companies?
We have established track standards. Aside from that, we use best practices in training elevator and industries. Our Safety Captains meet with personel from all industries at least twice a year, to inspect and advise of conditions found. The best training is just before the winter sets in, where they are trained how to pocket their switches, and keep them clean. If an industry switch is not workable, or crossings inside the track are fouled with ice, we will not work them.
Mookie wrote: When you find a problem within the railroad itself, do you give a report to your safety committee?
We have a member of management on our team, he is there to advise us, and lend support. As so far, he has co-operated far beyond our expectations. But he also believes in self help. When that only goes so far, he steers us in the right direction to get things done. Our goal is to be proactive, not reactive. We get there by education, and honest discussion with each other.
Mookie wrote: As I said - this is interesting - at least to me, but I am starting to sound like a talk show host.ThanxMook
I appreciate the answers to my questions. I will digest all this and maybe come up with some more.
So, Ken....
What railroad do you work for?
23 17 46 11
Looks like Ken is a Union Pacific Employee after reading some of the CN Waving thread.
I agree with his view on cell phone texting. If your out on the ground with the wheels rolling or walking it just plain stupid. Thats where hopefully the people your working with should readly straighten you out. A good butt ripping about how easy it is to get killed, tell them next time i see that kinda crap im gonna take your phone from you at the start of the shift. Thats not really asking to much. Theres not enough of that going on, reminding each other to be safe. I take it to the extreme, even more so when there new. "If you loose a limb.... your going back under cuzz im not gonna see ya again." You start laying it on like that, reminding them that it just to easy to get killed out here even if your doing everything right, no since in making it any more dangerous on yourself. Talk like that on the switching lead about safety, telling your co-workers that you wanna see everyone tie up alive and with all there working parts.
OOppps forgot to reply to Kens post so i can see what else he said.
Inconsistant training between different divisions (lack of yard and industry training).
That responsibly should be put on the employees training new guys. I know first hand theres alot of guys out there that dont do there best. Everytime i had a student the past they've thanked me by saying that they learned more with me then they had there whole time so far. Same thing like the cell phone, someone needs to speak up on the crew and tell them we could do better here. Teaching new guys to take the safest coarse. One of the things i can see wrong with how its set up, new guys spend too much time riding trains insted on the ground doing some real work. I could teach my daughter to pull up paperwork and sit there and watch a hoghead. Getting a guy use to spending a few minutes to think about everything that can go wrong before he heads out there to do some work somewhere he's never been. After a few months of having someone there telling him everything to do and not letting him think for himself. Thats where the problem is. Theres more to it, too much watching, turing jobs into a three or four man crew insted of someone stepping back letting them think for themselves, "your gonna do this, i'll watch you to make sure you dont start doing something stupid". Its hard to get guys to do that because it slows the work down and sometimes its painful to watch but thats the best way to do it. If a guys been trained right and givin the tools to think about how to do this so nothing happens, a new guy should be able to go work anywhere after marking up.
Elevators not maintaining any walkways/towpaths. Storage and security at industries and elevators with HazMat (TIC's). Walkways in all scrap facilities.
If its not safe to walk there... dont do it. Thats just part of the job, most guys wont remove a hazard by simply moving it out of the way. How many times at work do you see someone walking next to the track when if they walked out there a ways theres a much better path. Laziness is all that is, same goes for the motors, how many times do you see a water bottle on the floor and no one will take the 10 seconds to reach down there and pick it up. You can walk anywhere on the railroad and you shouldn't get hurt, ya might not set any speed records. If thats what ya got to do. If its that bad where you cant fix it yourself, your sure someones gonna get hurt, theres no other way to do it..... drag the manager out there yourself and make him do it. Employee Empowerment.... it does work.
Ken might have to go into the security issue for me to understand what and why he thinks thats important.
Radio Traffic Poor lighting in industries
In a yard you just need to learn to work with it. Hearing what someone else is doing out weighs getting walked on in my view. If theres a radio hog, set them straight, id guess theres hardly a trainmaster out there that wont back you up. Tell them to go to a different channel if they need to do some long drawn out talk to the yard master.
They give everyone a lantern (i know there ment to give signals) and headlights now due to RCL. Same thing as walking and taking the safe coarse, if you can see stop the move and walk in there to make sure everything is safe. It takes longer but if thats what ya got to do to get it done safely so be it.
Constant change of assignments/last minute unnecessary moves at shift's end.
Same thing as training, what does the railroad want you to do? Stop what your doing and have a job briefing. If you teach new guys how handle stuff like that, theres no reason for it to be unsafe. Eyeing the quit, going threw beans, slugging it out. Guys who dont know what there doing or haven't been around long enough to know how to "getter done" shouldn't try to speed up. If ya teach new guy to get on the switch engine and drink a six pack of water before they start on that additional that just got thrown on them, they might quit doing it. Throwing out the "going threw beans" to guys who are still green is one way to put an end to guys taking shortcuts at the end of there shift. Back when i was doing RCL i saw guys trying to work to fast like i was so they didnt get sent to lunch. New guys shouldnt be having a carrot dangling in there face when they need to concentrate on not screwing up.
Weather (Industries - winter related conditions).
The work just takes long, everyone should just get that threw there head. Theres more hazzards out there, thats just the way it is. Remind each other to take it slow, look out for ice and what not. I wonder if Ken thinks MOW aught to be there to clean all of his switches. If a broom and two guys trying to throw switch aint getting it done.... guess your not getting in there. The railroad doesnt ask any more of trainmen then that, all you can do is tag it unusable and report it. Then its all on MOW. Handling smaller cuts, taking more breaks, thowing the quit out the window, plan on not getting all the work done.
Weather (summer related) Weather radio removed from handsets and Footboard's desk radio. No shelter on lead (need permanent water cooler)
Most places i think have a communications guy some where close to there home terminals who can add the weather to your hand held. Simple fix there, you might have to go hunt him down early in the morning, if it means that much to you, thats the route you have to take.
The shelter on the lead and a permanent water cooler? The switch engine takes care of all of that. Better water breaks are taken deep in a rail anyways. Same thing as cold weather switching, handle smaller cuts so you can get up there quicker. Just because you can pull 50 cars up the lead doesnt mean you have to. If your gonna be out there a while because theres no choice, take a long break before heading out there and a good long break afterwards. The managers shouldnt tell you other wise, yardmaster might not like it, but tough crap. Thinking for yourself and employee empowerment takes care of all those issues also.
Poor turnover between Footboard and Dispatchers.
I'm guessing it must lead to more work, whats wrong with that? Besides them lying where the trains at thats gonna pick up or set out, looking at the BU's, boards, lineups... before starting work aught to fix any of those problems. Takes some more time at the start of the shift to do things like that but... i dont see how that is related to safety other then the guys assuming things are still the way they left them. New guys need to learn to assume nothing, the only thing you rely on is your eyes. Ken might have to explain that one better also.
Yard track conditions. Equipment (cars) conditions
Alot of new guy dont take into fact that the track might give way under the car there riding. Give youself plenty of room away from the cars, have an escape route. If you dont think its safe to ride the cars or be that close to them while there rolling, walk in there first or stand some where safe before starting the move. Same goes for the cars, if there too crappy to ride, find one that is safe or just walk out or into those rails. Theres no rule that says you have to ride them.
The railroad isnt a perfect place, theres alot geniuses out there who think the railroad should make it safe for us. The work should go fast and everyone should be there to help me out. Thats just not the case. Personal safety, good training, thinking for yourself. It's not too hard to talk to management about what you think needs fixed. I think Ken spends too much energry working on getting all the work done and taking it the safe way is 2nd. "The railroad should fix this and that..." If things are slowing you down, show them it REALLY IS. I say that because of him writing car numbers down as they drag a track out at 10 mph.
Not that im a slug, hogheads duties of safety are different then those of a trainmen. But back when i worked on the ground i could eather floor it and take a chance that something might happen, i can switch cars around like no other, but if something really need to be fixed or someone asked me why it took so long or why we died and didnt get all the work done i told them what i was up against. When something stood in my way, be it snow in the switches or a long nasty walk threw some treaterous foot path. The last thing i did was act like it wasnt slowing me down and tryed to speed up and take chances. I dont think Ken looks at it like that. We have a footboard job over here where im at as well, the nature of the job is some what to getting the work done as fast as possible, and hazzards along the way should be fixed by the railroad or customers. Efficiency and speed play the biggest part. Theres a safe way to do everything expected of us, you dont see that on alot of jobs. If you show up to work and plan on working 12 hours or maybe even dying things are usually better as far as safety. Being able to talk to the managers about your concerns plays a big part in making the place better for everyone.
The railroad isnt a perfect place, theres alot geniuses out there who think the railroad should make it safe for us.
Umm.... tell me WHY shouldn't the railroad make our work environment safe??????
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
I've heard it said that the railroad rulebook is written in blood. There are many protections there, but a goodly number require action by the people involved to work. When people choose to circumvent or ignore those protections, bad things can happen. In other words, it's only as safe as you make it.
While I can't deny that the railroads themselves have in the past, and may today ask workers to do things which are unsafe, if railroaders make safety their way of life, then they, and their crew, will go home at the end of each tour.
And we simply can't account for some circumstances - they are out of our control.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
edblysard wrote:By all means, please explain...I would like to read your take on it, and see if Ken plans on answering the question.
I am just slow.
edblysard wrote: So, Ken....What railroad do you work for?
Onion Pacific.
UPRR engineer wrote: Boy...Ken's take on safety is far from what i believe. I put more weight on the individual. Unless there is a major defect be it the track or the equipment there's no reason for anything to happen. Id like to know what RR he works for also, if its the UP, somethings wrong over there. I wont go into too much detail right now about "taking care of you own", but if someone asks i give some more feed on it.
What we do is exactly taking care of our fellow employees. Formally and informally. Informally as you say, stopping a movement, and getting the guy or gal's mind right. Walked up to a kid last week, not wearing his glasses. Instead of harsh words, looked at him, asked him if his hat could see any better. He made excuses, so I asked him if had a choice in seeing eye dogs. The glasses went back down. Then we had a short discussion about maybe getting some glass types of safety wear, which are available from the company. I even went so far as to get him a form to order them later that day.
I have spent many hours this week, checking up on my fellow employees that were flooded out. Two have red-tagged homes. I made numerous trips to get all who needed them cleaning kits, water, and what ever else was out there. I have checked with our Senator's and Representative's' office to push for Disaster declarations from the Federal Government. I have been on the phone with FEMA, the State, the Teamsters, and regularly check in with our counterparts on the UTU and BMWE in order to find them further assistance. I have a stack of applications that will be delivered tonight to start the assistance process.
So it is not just about safety at work, but their welfare off the job too. We collectively have done what ever we could to help each other out. What good is a person at work, when his home is a wreck? His mind surely would not be right. And others will worry about them as well.
RRKen wrote: UPRR engineer wrote: Boy...Ken's take on safety is far from what i believe. I put more weight on the individual. Unless there is a major defect be it the track or the equipment there's no reason for anything to happen. Id like to know what RR he works for also, if its the UP, somethings wrong over there. I wont go into too much detail right now about "taking care of you own", but if someone asks i give some more feed on it.What we do is exactly taking care of our fellow employees. Formally and informally. Informally as you say, stopping a movement, and getting the guy or gal's mind right. Walked up to a kid last week, not wearing his glasses. Instead of harsh words, looked at him, asked him if his hat could see any better. He made excuses, so I asked him if had a choice in seeing eye dogs. The glasses went back down. Then we had a short discussion about maybe getting some glass types of safety wear, which are available from the company. I even went so far as to get him a form to order them later that day. I have spent many hours this week, checking up on my fellow employees that were flooded out. Two have red-tagged homes. I made numerous trips to get all who needed them cleaning kits, water, and what ever else was out there. I have checked with our Senator's and Representative's' office to push for Disaster declarations from the Federal Government. I have been on the phone with FEMA, the State, the Teamsters, and regularly check in with our counterparts on the UTU and BMWE in order to find them further assistance. I have a stack of applications that will be delivered tonight to start the assistance process. So it is not just about safety at work, but their welfare off the job too. We collectively have done what ever we could to help each other out. What good is a person at work, when his home is a wreck? His mind surely would not be right. And others will worry about them as well.
Ken, I think it speaks very well of you that you are helping your fellow employees out during the flood disaster. Any help, no matter how small I'm sure is greatly appreciated.
This should be a reminder to us all to contribute whatever we can toward Iowa flood flood relief efforts operated by both the Red Cross and the Salvation Army.
If you contact your local Red Cross or Salvation Army Chapter, they can provide information on how you can help.
Here is how you can help in the relief effort for the flood victims in the midwest:
http://www.redcross.org/pressrelease/0,1077,0_314_7844,00.html
http://www.usc.salvationarmy.org/usc/WWW_USC.nsf/vw-news/763F28E2FB2F6C0D862574630064FD24?opendocument
Please bookmark these sites for you use, and be sure to pass them along to your friends, so that we all can aid in the flood relief effort.
UPRR engineer wrote: Inconsistant training between different divisions (lack of yard and industry training). If a guys been trained right and given the tools to think about how to do this so nothing happens, a new guy should be able to go work anywhere after marking up.
If a guys been trained right and given the tools to think about how to do this so nothing happens, a new guy should be able to go work anywhere after marking up.
On the division south of us, they have very few yard or industry jobs. 90% of the work is road jobs. With one exception, there is two out of six terminals where they could hold a yard job in about five years after they hire on, by then, they are out firing. If you are forced up to a place like Mason City, and have to be Footboard qualified when you really are not even switchman qualified, is a disaster waiting to happen. They have no exposure to it down there at all.
Elevators not maintaining any walkways/towpaths. Storage and security at industries and elevators with HazMat (TIC's). Walkways in all scrap facilities. If its not safe to walk there... dont do it. Thats just part of the job, most guys wont remove a hazard by simply moving it out of the way. How many times at work do you see someone walking next to the track when if they walked out there a ways theres a much better path. Laziness is all that is, same goes for the motors, how many times do you see a water bottle on the floor and no one will take the 10 seconds to reach down there and pick it up. You can walk anywhere on the railroad and you shouldn't get hurt, ya might not set any speed records. If thats what ya got to do. If its that bad where you cant fix it yourself, your sure someones gonna get hurt, theres no other way to do it..... drag the manager out there yourself and make him do it. Employee Empowerment.... it does work. Ken might have to go into the security issue for me to understand what and why he thinks thats important.
I am assuming you are talking about the securement of Anhydrous Ammonia tanks. Idiots use it to make Meth. Two weeks ago, a crew was out to pull loads of corn from an elevator. It was a damp cool night, and they walked into a cloud of Anhydrous. Their tanks are not secured as they should be given the problems with Meth. Every time someone finds leaking anhydrous, it is because there were person or persons tampering with the tanks. It creates a huge hazard to our crews. Thankfully, most co-ops have secured their tanks behind fences and barbed wire.
Radio Traffic Poor lighting in industries In a yard you just need to learn to work with it. Hearing what someone else is doing out weighs getting walked on in my view. If theres a radio hog, set them straight, id guess theres hardly a trainmaster out there that wont back you up. Tell them to go to a different channel if they need to do some long drawn out talk to the yard master. They give everyone a lantern (i know there ment to give signals) and headlights now due to RCL. Same thing as walking and taking the safe coarse, if you can see stop the move and walk in there to make sure everything is safe. It takes longer but if thats what ya got to do to get it done safely so be it.
We currently have three channels here, one road, one yard, one branch. All industry jobs and road trains use the road channel, along with Engineering. It is not so bad on the branch channel, as the jobs are far away from each other most times. But when you have two industry jobs on either end of town working, and trains clearing warrants, Engineering clearing Foul times, T&T, or Warrants, it becomes a five mile zone of congestion. At least we moved the yard vans off to another channel.
Let me pose this question. What is the difference between a yard with 12 tracks, and a cement plant with 24 tracks? Lighting.
Different situations. When a Footboard goes out after marking lists, and making a plan, he sets his mind to accomplish it. At 6 hours and 45 minutes, he is usually done with his plan, and is thinking about a pickling cars, and turnover for the next shift. The rest of the crew is tying up loose ends from the day (or night). Stupid last minute moves can wait until the next shift. Besides, the next shift cannot start their day til the previous Footboard gets his work done and turnover made.
There is always give and take in this job. But there is a time and place for everything.
Weather (Industries - winter related conditions). The work just takes long, everyone should just get that threw there head. Theres more hazzards out there, thats just the way it is. Remind each other to take it slow, look out for ice and what not. I wonder if Ken thinks MOW aught to be there to clean all of his switches. If a broom and two guys trying to throw switch aint getting it done.... guess your not getting in there. The railroad doesnt ask any more of trainmen then that, all you can do is tag it unusable and report it. Then its all on MOW. Handling smaller cuts, taking more breaks, thowing the quit out the window, plan on not getting all the work done.
I have been out where every time you throw a switch, it would fill back in as soon as the move was done. At an industry, they are responsible for their switches and walkways. That being the case, if it aint clean, they don't get their train or cars. If the flange ways are not clear, we don't go in. If the switches are under ice, end of conversation.
Also, if one person cannot throw a switch, easily, it aint going to be thrown. Industries are warned in advance of this.
Weather (summer related) Weather radio removed from handsets and Footboard's desk radio. No shelter on lead (need permanent water cooler)Most places i think have a communications guy some where close to there home terminals who can add the weather to your hand held. Simple fix there, you might have to go hunt him down early in the morning, if it means that much to you, thats the route you have to take.The shelter on the lead and a permanent water cooler? The switch engine takes care of all of that. Better water breaks are taken deep in a rail anyways. Same thing as cold weather switching, handle smaller cuts so you can get up there quicker. Just because you can pull 50 cars up the lead doesnt mean you have to. If your gonna be out there a while because theres no choice, take a long break before heading out there and a good long break afterwards. The managers shouldnt tell you other wise, yardmaster might not like it, but tough crap. Thinking for yourself and employee empowerment takes care of all those issues also.
The rules state no WX radio in handhelds or desk radios.
Warm weather switching requires that water be available to the crew where they are, not where I am at. The portable coolers keep disappearing. I have chained one to a light pole next to an orange trash can. It walked away. A small lean-to shelter would be perfect in both summer and winter, instead of having to halt all work. In temps above 90° water breaks are taken every 45 minutes. Same intervals in the winter when temps go below -5° ({not wind chill}which is common up here). During the winter, the Jeep is made available for the Footboard and Switchman as a warming station, far better than the loco cab.
Poor turnover between Footboard and Dispatchers. I'm guessing it must lead to more work, whats wrong with that? Besides them lying where the trains at thats gonna pick up or set out, looking at the BU's, boards, lineups... before starting work aught to fix any of those problems. Takes some more time at the start of the shift to do things like that but... i dont see how that is related to safety other then the guys assuming things are still the way they left them. New guys need to learn to assume nothing, the only thing you rely on is your eyes. Ken might have to explain that one better also.
When you get to work as a Footboard or industry Foreman, you rely on track lists, turnovers, and industry pull sheets. The Footboard has to know that if the turnover says that track 100 is clear, and you instruct a crew to pull 80 cars into it, it had better be clear. But an Asst. Trainmaster or DS has oft times put a train there without telling a soul. Results are quite frustrating.
Yard track conditions. Equipment (cars) conditions Alot of new guy dont take into fact that the track might give way under the car there riding. Give youself plenty of room away from the cars, have an escape route. If you dont think its safe to ride the cars or be that close to them while there rolling, walk in there first or stand some where safe before starting the move. Same goes for the cars, if there too crappy to ride, find one that is safe or just walk out or into those rails. Theres no rule that says you have to ride them.
I offer this recent incident. Man, 30 years, rode a car into a track, went to tie it down, platform gave way, tried to hold on to the brake wheel, the brake gave way. He ended up under the wheels. Even the most experienced trainman cannot tell a good from a bad weld, or metal bend. Yeah, if in doubt, don't do it. But both failing at the same time? Turns out it was from the same repair. Something more than a weld gave way. Shop processes and procedures. I believe in this case, contractors did the work.
I stand by my risk assessment.
zugmann wrote: The railroad isnt a perfect place, theres alot geniuses out there who think the railroad should make it safe for us. Umm.... tell me WHY shouldn't the railroad make our work environment safe??????
What i was getting at there was, it comes down to the employees making the right choices. Just like we're not right there when they think we should be to pull some cars, same thing goes with getting things fixed, it takes time. I dont know how it is on your railroad but here on the Union Pacific any employee can take something out of service, be it a switch or the foot path along the lead. Safety really is up to the individual.
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