Donner tunnel ?

[blue streak 1]

does anyone know of any studies done for a RR tunnel under Donner? I'm sure it has done just locating a study. Does I-80 go under and its cost and length. Of course any old study would be outdated and obsolete due to new clearance requirements, TBMs, etc.  

[caldreamer]

There are tunnels over the Donner pass.  The mainline runs over I-80 on a ling bridge just outside of Colfax.  After the bridge the line runs above and basically parallel to I-80 all the way to the top of the mountain at Norden and down thru Truckee to Reno..  The first tunnel is about 4 miles east of Colfax, just past a very famous point called Cape Horn.  I have walked this line at this and other points all the way to Norden many times and know it VERY well. 

[Modelcar]

.....What is the elevation at the location the line passes over Donner Pass....?

[Railway Man]

Railroad elevation is 7000' on Track #2 (westward track) and 7032' on Track #1 (eastward track, now removed), highway elevation 7085'.

The highway is not in a tunnel.  Track #2 cuts off the summit ridge in Tunnel #41, 10,325' in length. 

In 1945, Kaiser Engineers proposed on its own a massive project to reduce gradient on the pass and eliminate much of the exposure to the most severe winter weather.  This would consist of a series of tunnels, 57.6 miles in aggregate, and surface running reducing the gradient from a nominal 2.4% to 1.9% ruling.  The ROI on the investment was far too poor to contemplate such a scheme using private funds and hopes for government assistance were overly sanguine.

 Because of the altitude differential between Roseville at the western foot at 168' above sea level and Reno at the eastern base at 4554', the broad nature of the mountains (135 miles across), and the lack of a suitable water-level approach on the western side, it would be expensive to build a low-grade line without inserting virtually all of the 135 miles into tunnel.

RWM 

[timz]

The first tunnel is about 4 miles east of Colfax

Something like four miles east of Rocklin, he meant, assuming "first" means first as seen by an eastward train on the traditionally eastward track.

<>Summit elevation on the now-removed former westward track was around 7011 ft; present summit is around 6883 ft NGVD29-- I forget whether it's higher or lower in NGVD88.

[Railway Man]

The first tunnel is about 4 miles east of Colfax

Something like four miles east of Rocklin, he meant, assuming "first" means first as seen by an eastward train on the traditionally eastward track.

<>Summit elevation on the now-removed former westward track was around 7011 ft; present summit is around 6883 ft NGVD29-- I forget whether it's higher or lower in NGVD88.

These are corrected elevations rather than the SP track chart elevations?

RWM 

[K. P. Harrier]

Regarding the 10,345' Tunnel 41 ...

It has been said that no one will go inside that tunnel, not even within a locomotive, unless they have oxygen tanks with them.

[Modelcar]

.....Roughly 7,000' elevation for Donner....that happens to match very closely the elevation of the BNSF thru Flagstaff.

If the tunnel and regrading by Kaiser engineers would have brought it down to 1.9% grade...that would have matched it very close to the old Pennsylvania route up {and around Horseshoe}, and over the Alleghenies at 1.8%....Steep for heavy trains but still seems to be a great route that has not been changed since the 1854 original build. {Except work done on tunnels at the summit}.

And for the Donner tunnel and crew wearing oxygen masks....That must mean no passenger trains pass thru it.  Sounds like a tunnel that doesn't vent itself very well.

[DanRaitz]

Regarding the 10,345' Tunnel 41 ...

It has been said that no one will go inside that tunnel, not even within a locomotive, unless they have oxygen tanks with them.

 

I've heard that this was the reason, because of crew suffocation, that SP developed the cab-forward steam loco.  But since the intro of the diesel, there has not been a problem for train crews in this tunnel.

 

As for passenger trains... Amtrak runs their California Zephyr thru there twice a day, one eastbound and one westbound.

 

Dan

[garyla]

It sounds like some epic scheme for the Central Powers to win World War I, huh?   October 1945 was much too late for that. 

That was a name given to the tunnel proposal described by RailwayMan above.  Anyone's who's intrigued by this should get hold of a copy of John Signor's book Donner Pass, Southern Pacific's Sierra Crossing.  Pages 156-157 have a map with quite a bit of detail, including the mileage on the various segments. 

The rotary snowplows would have had only a fraction of their present work to do, even in the very roughest winters.

 

 

[Railway Man]

Quentin -- the route was heavily modernized in the Harriman era; the second main track is in many places on a separated alignment with reduced grades and curvature, and improved clearances.

I have never heard the story about the "Big Hole", tunnel 41, requring oxygen bottles on all manned locomotives and am skeptical to put it mildly.  Amtrak passes through it twice daily.

RWM 

[CopCarSS]

A couple questions about Donner:

1. How much and what kind of traffic does the line see?
2. There was a reference to the rotaries above. Do rotaries see a lot of use on the line?

Thanks in advance!

[Modelcar]

....RWM:

Interesting info.  Of course Amtrak wouldn't have the tremendous smoke as was involved back when steam was the sourse of power.  Sounds like serious regrading was accomplished to improve that route up and over that pass....

The oxygen bottle story is something different for sure.

[timz]

These are corrected elevations rather than the SP track chart elevations?

The NGVD29 elevation of the highest point of the present (formerly eastward) track used to be 6882 or 6883, top of rail, based on the NGS benchmarks. It seems NGVD88 elevation is four feet higher than that-- that is, "sea level" is now assumed to be four feet lower than it used to be. (Not because it's actually lower, but their best guess is now that much different.)

SP doesn't even put elevations on their 5-or-10-miles-to-the-page charts, as I recall. In any case RRs don't make a huge effort to get their absolute elevations right-- just the relative ones. If you look at a SFe chart in the San Joaquin Valley you'll see two elevation discontinuities, each around 100 ft.

[garyla]

According to what I've read, the rotaries aren't used at all during most winters.  Of course, they're very expensive in terms of labor and other operating expenses.  SP and now UP seem to have gotten by (most years) with frequent passes of the flangers, followed by the Jordan spreaders as required.  But when there's a really nasty storm, the rotaries do have to be called out, and it's a quite show to see.

If you're interested in the big plows, you might enjoy a video that's been on the market about the SP snowfighters on Donner Pass. 

[DanRaitz]

If you're interested in the big plows, you might enjoy a video that's been on the market about the SP snowfighters on Donner Pass. 

 

The title of the video is "The Battle for Donner Pass" put out in 1993 by Video Rails. If you can find a copy of it, GET IT! It is very well done.

 

[blue streak 1]

Thanks RWM. I was looking more for figures to run a tunnel on level grade for the west side to east side. ie how close the tracks are at the same elevation say maybe from East Truckee to Crystal Lake . I vaguly remember a figure of 35 miles but that was 30 years ago. 

Also what height is UP planning to increase the clearances to.

[caldreamer]

The rotaries are not used every winter.   But when the "STORM KING" hits and they have a blizzard and really get snowd on the rotaries run.  Otherwise the trains, push plows or jordon spreaders do the job.

[hrbdizzle]

Im a Roseville conductor for the Union Pacific. I work the Roseville subdivision quite often. Tunnel 41, has rules in the Roseville service unit, timetable about SCBA's " Self Containing Breathing Apparatus" WE ARE REQUIRED TO BE CERTIFIED EACH YEAR, and MUST HAVE IN POSSESSION ALL TIMES ON DUTY. they come in big red plastic cases, and are a full face mask. Identical to what fire fighters use.

Amtrak does not need to carry because they never have any problems with the "Big hole" like us freighters do. As one mentioned the tunnel is approx, 11,000 feet long. and is at grade. There is hardly any oxygen, or moving air in the big hole. Traveling west, with our trains built to the max 99% of the time to the nuts, of tonnage restrictions, and having the least amount of power necessary because we have a cheap bean counting carrier. So given a high tonnage train, and under power, given with a long tunnel with low oxygen levels, and no escape for heat. Our units, ac/dc what ever all choke out, all the time. So we stall half way through, and have to idle inside for 20-30 minutes for oil temps to drop.

In the mean time thick soot is filling our cabs, through every door, and window seal.

Scenario 2.

UDE, Undesired emergency break application. Tipping over at norden going east. 6500 ft, grain train. half way through the tunnel and whammo, get a slip joint. Train bunches up, and a hose seperates. Now I have to walk my train, tie it down to recover the air, and fix whatever broke.

Or going west, up hill through the big hole. Poorly built train and break a knuckle. Again hole fills up with smoke, fast does not vent at all. I have to tie about 50 hand brakes, and repair the knuckle. They do not want us to die due to asphyxia, and neither do I.

There are oxygen bottle change out stations, located every 1/4 mile inside.

[daveklepper]

Really horrible working working conditions.   The Army pays combat pay for such goings on.

There is a better soluton.   Convert a whole flock of main-line freight diesels to be diesel-electric-electrics, with 600- volt dc (possibly ac, if all freight locomotives have alternator generation instead of dc generators, type of motors irrelevant)  traction, and put a center Lionel-tinplate-like massive third rail through the tunnel with maybe 200 foot concrete roadbed (with heaters) on each side for transition, two roller shoes on each locomotive the drop down into place when entering and spring-loaded snap back up with general operation.

To even out the power generation to make the power company a bit happier, there should be flywheel, capacitor, or massive battery storage of electrical energy at the substation supplying the short tunnel-only electrification. 

Despite all the Oxygen and everything, what you describe seems like a potential disaster scene for me.

[hrbdizzle]

Yeah all we get is a 138 mile basic day. We should receive a hazardous bonus for this territory.

It was funny though last summer, a GE big wig was on a ride along down loading data over the hill, for advanced software upgrades. When they too stalled half way through the big hole. They actually had to shove out, east because two units got too hot, and shut down and could not be restarted.