I am concerned about the use of restricted speed and signals for passenger trains, especialy loaded passenger trains. If a restricting signal does not gaurentee the line is clear, then I would say a passenger train should not proceed at all in those conditions.
No wonder Amtrak can't run on time to a schedual when they run through sidings and past yards and even approach stations at slow unsafe restricting speeds. In blind curves or bad weather anything faster then pulling 2mph with a brake set would be unsafe.
The Pere marquette accident seemed to be caused by a restricting signal. I would say if a passenger train recieves a restricting signal it should mean stop until a more favourable indication. Or if a railroad company cannot afford to let a passenger train know if the track is cleared then it shouldn't run passenger trains. It's not safe and it makes for slow trains.
Restricting speeds should be for in yard movements only with empty stock or on freight only lines. I can understand under rare emergnency situaltions one could use the restricting rule for a passenger train. But it shouldn't be communly used if you want to run safe and fast passenger trains.
The Pere Marquette incident was allegedly caused by the Engineer misinterpreting a signal. Yes, it was a restricting signal aspect, but apparently he confused the indication with a more favorable aspect that is used in his regular territory.
A restricting signal is a great tool to keep a train moving when circumstances prohibit normal operations. When the definition of a restricting signal (or any signal, for that matter) is followed explicitly, there are no problems.
And yes, sometimes 2mph is all one can operate at if visibility is greatly reduced. Heck, I've even run a train at restricted speed with the conductor walking ahead of the train because the fog was so incredibly thick.
Properly operating at Restricted speed is not unsafe. Improper opearation at restricted speed is.
When you involve humans in any process, you introduce the risk of human errors. There is risk in everything we do. Risk must be minimized but it is difficult to eliminate it. Even computers can cause errors if not programmed properly or if a mechanical failure occurs.
NORAC Rule 290 - Restricting: (click on the image to enlarge so you can read it)
Rule 291 is stop and proceed.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
blue streak 1 wrote:For any railroad to use a red over yellow as a restricting signal into a siding is ridiculous. CSX where I am uses either A lunar signal or a flashing red to denote a restricting signal. That appears to be much more logical. And safer. No additional signal heads either; only reprograming the signal logic. Does anyone know what the NOROC rules call for. Isn't that at least somewhat a standard?
A much more logical signal? yea right It dont matter what you use if you are qualified on that line of road then you run according to the meanings of those signals there is nothing wrong with the red over yellow for restricting. its better than most other signals ive seen.
Deja vu!
Did something happen in the news recently to prompt this rehash of a subject beaten to death in two or three previous threads?
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
the ex Pere Marquette-C&O-CSX uses a red-over-yellow aspect for the restricting indication....rulebook says reduce speed to restricted speed which is not to exceed 15 mph prepared to stop short of obstruction bad switch\derail or other on track equipment etc etc.....makes sense to me....if your moving from signalled track to an unsignaled siding on your way thru a yard to get to the Passenger station you would need something to govern your movement...and keep your eyes open...example.....d708 out of Ensel Yd Lansing MI was called to go around the wye at Elmdale onto what is left of a long abandoned branch to pull stored cars stashed there about 3 years before......we pulled the cars cuz they was rippin up the track....well off the siding instead of a slow clear or slow approach you get a restricting and thats the last signal you see until you come back to the approach signal...... its like a all weather signal to govern your movment past the signal on unsignalled track......red-over-yellow pink-over-mauve...colors dont realy matter its the rules you follow
well.....with that logic no passenger train would travel on any track with another track or train near it....not practicle....RR's have yards and wide open spaces and bad track good track and curves and fast trains and slow trains good signals and bad signals.....and all in all RR's in America are pretty darn safe considering...ton-miles\passenger-miles etc etc....and from what ive seen both as a railfan and railroader there is a sense of pride in safety among operating employees that is umatched in any other industry...running a passenger train down "bad track on a curve in the dead of night in a snowstorm in a busy yard" on a restricting signal happens ever day....think about it....a modern amtrak passenger train moving at 15 mph can stop in about 50 feet (1 car length)...moving at 75 maybe a lil more....im thinkin 15 is safer then 75....and yes it could be a broken rail they do break which is why the signal; indication tells ya to look where your going....competitive?....lol Amtrak compete? with who or what?....well anyway most restricting signals Amtrak is going to see is in yards cities and towns....where they should be moving slow anyway
p.s. love the Polara
Stopped is not going to get you there that quickly either!
Restricted speed=A speed that will permit stopping within one-half range of vision. It will also permit stopping short of a train, a car, an obstruction, a stop signal, a derail or an improperly lined switch. It must permit looking out for broken rail. It will not exceed 15 mph.
As long as this rule is followed, nothing that you mention matters, but that is one of those funny thing about railroading. For the most part when you follow the rules you will be O.K. It is when rules don't get followed that bad things start to happen.
An "expensive model collector"
I brought this up because passenger trains traveling at restricted speed is not a competive mode of transport, speed wise.
Neither is sitting in traffic, all alone in your car, but that doesn't stop people. It would be a lot more efficient if I could pull out of my driveway, set my cruise control at 80 per and not slow down until I had to pull into my parking space at work, but that's not going to happen...
I'm also questioning the safety of restricting speed. The PM crash was just what came to mind. Why would you even send a loaded passenger train down a busy track with trains on adjacent tracks blocking any view in curves ? What is the point in having a signal that just basically indicates the track is unsafe but proceed anyways with a train full of passengers that can't stop so easily. It could even be broken rail !
You know, I think that's exactly what they had in mind. Besides, calling for restricted speed does not mean that the track is unsafe. It means that there is the potential. Every time I run on our railroad, I deal with restricted speed (NORAC Rule 98). Visibility is not limited, but we still have to follow the rule, and our limit is 5 mph, not 15 or 20.
80. MOVEMENT AT RESTRICTED SPEEDMovements made at Restricted Speed must apply the following three requirements as the method of operation:1. Control the movement to permit stopping within one half the range of vision short of:a. Other trains or railroad equipment occupying or fouling the track,b. Obstructions,c. Switches not properly lined for movement,d. Derails set in the derailing position,e. Any signal requiring a stop,AND2. Look out for broken rail and misaligned track.AND3. Do not exceed 20 MPH outside interlocking limits and 15 MPH within interlocking limits. This restriction applies to the entire movement, unless otherwise specified in the rule or instruction that requires Restricted Speed.
80. MOVEMENT AT RESTRICTED SPEED
Movements made at Restricted Speed must apply the following three requirements as the method of operation:
1. Control the movement to permit stopping within one half the range of vision short of:
a. Other trains or railroad equipment occupying or fouling the track,
b. Obstructions,
c. Switches not properly lined for movement,
d. Derails set in the derailing position,
e. Any signal requiring a stop,
AND
2. Look out for broken rail and misaligned track.
3. Do not exceed 20 MPH outside interlocking limits and 15 MPH within interlocking limits. This restriction applies to the entire movement, unless otherwise specified in the rule or instruction that requires Restricted Speed.
n012944 wrote: .As long as this rule is followed, nothing that you mention matters, but that is one of those funny thing about railroading. For the most part when you follow the rules you will be O.K. It is when rules don't get followed that bad things start to happen.
.
Not to be a smart a%$ but....
When you are driveing through town and see a stoplight ahead do you hold at the previous signal because there are cars in front of you?
Restricted signal allows you to advance as much as you can down the line even when signals are not showing a green every couple hundred feet. It just isn't practicle with wayside signals to "green light" you right up to the rear of the next train (or any obstruction). In reality wayside signals are spaced 2-3 miles apart out of the congested areas (could be much shorter in yard complexes or places where at grade crossings are). It's kind of like following a car on a two lane road, are you going to stop at a controlled intersection and wait till the car ahead clears the next signal or are you going to follow at restricted speed?
Restricted speed is faster than stopped.Restricting does not mean the track is unsafe. Unsafe is when the train is not operated according to the rules as indicated by the signals.
You seem to want the signal to display red/absolute stop instead of restricting, but if a train disobeys/misinterprets a red signal and has an accident, do you then think that red/absolute stop is also unsafe? I don't understand your logic.
Jamie
CLICK HERE FOR THE CSX DIXIE LINE BLOG
But my point is that I don't think passenger trains should travel on track that isn't bonded, and passenger trains shouldn't travel slow either.
You think the TGV and ICE run at 200 mph all of the time? And they're on dedicated track!
The restricting rule should remain but only used in very unusual circumstances, not at every meet and approaching every other yard and station.
NORAC Rule 98 (which calls for restricted speed) is very normal around terminals (for railroads using NORAC - the other rulebooks will have something similar). Stations along the main don't usually have such restrictions.
If you want people to use passenger trains they have to average a faster speed safely, all tracks were you run passenger trains should be bonded so the train can move along safely.
Passenger trains can move safely - as long as they play by the rules.
My tourist road doesn't even have signals. We get our track authority from the dispatcher.
Your other option is something that a lot of people would like, but which isn't likely to happen any time soon - completely separate tracks for freight and passenger.
As was pointed out, rules have been developed for reasons. In many cases, those reasons are written in blood.
When you talk about "non-bonded track", it sounds like you think that the passenger train in question was diverted to a yard track or something.
It wasn't--at Englewood it crossed from one main track to the other in CTC territory (no such thing as a "wrong" main), and was sent beyond the crossing to follow a train that was a couple of miles ahead, waiting for its signals to clear. It crossed over because the track ahead of it was occupied by another freight train moving toward it.
Now, I don't see too many options here. Either the train did what was intended (cross over and follow), or stop and stay, possibly incurring even further delays from traffic on Metra's line crossing at Englewood.
Your options are even further reduced if you don't want your passenger train running slowly.
By persisting in this thoughtless rant you are suggesting that current and former railroaders on this forum can't operate trains safely and efficiently, or that we don't know what we're up against when we come across a Restricting signal. I sincerely hope that you'll refer to the previous threads on the subject of this train, the track, the signals, the rules, and everything else connected with this incident, and let it rest, at least until some findings have been made public by people who are paid to find out what happened.
CShaveRR wrote: By persisting in this thoughtless rant you are suggesting that current and former railroaders on this forum can't operate trains safely and efficiently, or that we don't know what we're up against when we come across a Restricting signal. I sincerely hope that you'll refer to the previous threads on the subject of this train, the track, the signals, the rules, and everything else connected with this incident, and let it rest, at least until some findings have been made public by people who are paid to find out what happened.
Carl, he's just not reading, or at least not comprehending, what everyone is saying here. He has a certain idea in his mind and apparently is not really looking for answers, he is merely looking for confirmation of his misunderstanding. Either that, or he's a troll.
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