The only definition of yellow over yellow I know of is advance approach
BNSF and UP are two railroads upon which yellow-over-yellow (or yellow-over-yellow-over-red) is an aspect for which Approach Diverging is an indication. It suggests that the next signal will be red-over-green (Diverging Clear) or red-over-yellow (Diverging Approach). I'd have to look in the books to see what happens if this Diverging aspect also has to convey a diverging indication for the following signal, as I think you're describing.
Yellow-over-yellow is seen practically hourly throughout the day on the eastward signal for Track 1 at the gravel pit in Elmhurst (UP Geneva Sub), which is the distant signal for Park, where suburban trains cross over from track 1 to Track 1 (yes!) to go around Proviso.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
y/y is "advance approach" here on the NS (NKP Chicago District).
Wabash...does that signal indicate to be prepared to stop at the 2nd signal?
What is the significance of having that indication as a yellow would give the indication to stop 1 signal away. Does this allow for smoother brake application?
ed
CShaveRR wrote: I'd have to look in the books to see what happens if this Diverging aspect also has to convey a diverging indication for the following signal, as I think you're describing.
I'd have to look in the books to see what happens if this Diverging aspect also has to convey a diverging indication for the following signal, as I think you're describing.
The signal used in this instance would be a red over yellow over yellow. Diverging Approach Diverging. On the UP anyway.
Jeff
Thanks, Jeff!
Let me add my welcome to Dale's, Bruce! Thought the name was familiar.
Now the bad news: Yellow-over-yellow on BNSF is Approach Medium, but the indication is to be prepared to proceed on a diverging route at prescribed speed (not "Medium Speed"--sounds like an Approach Diverging to me!). Red over green is, in fact, Diverging Clear on BNSF.
Other possibilities for Approach Medium on BNSF have a flashing yellow on the top head. I don't know when one is used as opposed to the other (different prior railroads?), but either could be expected, regardless of the number of heads on the signal.
BNSF also has a Diverging Approach Diverging aspect, which is red-over-yellow-over-yellow.
MP173 wrote: y/y is "advance approach" here on the NS (NKP Chicago District).Wabash...does that signal indicate to be prepared to stop at the 2nd signal?What is the significance of having that indication as a yellow would give the indication to stop 1 signal away. Does this allow for smoother brake application? ed
The signal does mean to prepare tp stop at 2nd signal, as distance is to short to make a stop. It for lack of better wording is to short a distance between stop signal and preciding signal. so you give a indication at a distance that will allow a safe stop at the track speed for that area. it might be a 1/4 mile for 15 mph trackage up to 2 miles for 40 mph area. example is signal A is the stop signal and the signal before it is "B" and its only 1/2 mile before it its a positive signal protecting a spur, but that track speed is 40 mph so to allow the train the opertunity to stop you advance to signal "C" which is 1 3/4 miles further back from "B" this allows to get the train down to a speed to stop safley. Most generally i see this in areas that have had signals added to what was there other interlockings . regardless of track speeds.
On portions of the ex GTW and on railroads who use NORAC Operating Rules, Y/Y is Approach Slow. In Canada, the Y/Y signal is a Clear to Slow. Trains would proceed approaching next signal at slow speed. On the CSX Toledo Terminal, timetable special instruction makes the Y/Y a signal not in conformity with the indication being Advance Approach.
Is it any wonder that the Amtrak engineer who rear ended the NS train in Chicago might have been confused as to what R/Y was when in this thread alone, it has been discussed that on the BNSF and UP the Y/Y indication is Approach Diverging and on portions of the exGTW and NORAC roads Y/Y is Approach Slow while on CSX in Toledo, OH and portions of the NS Y/Y is Advance Appraoch have been discussed?.
Saxman wrote: On portions of the ex GTW and on railroads who use NORAC Operating Rules, Y/Y is Approach Slow. In Canada, the Y/Y signal is a Clear to Slow. Trains would proceed approaching next signal at slow speed. On the CSX Toledo Terminal, timetable special instruction makes the Y/Y a signal not in conformity with the indication being Advance Approach. Is it any wonder that the Amtrak engineer who rear ended the NS train in Chicago might have been confused as to what R/Y was when in this thread alone, it has been discussed that on the BNSF and UP the Y/Y indication is Approach Diverging and on portions of the exGTW and NORAC roads Y/Y is Approach Slow while on CSX in Toledo, OH and portions of the NS Y/Y is Advance Appraoch have been discussed?.
What amazes me is all the people who want to make excussess for the amtrak engineer. you are qualified on the territory you run on. If you dont run on that territory in a years time you requalify. signal and rules are in timetables. this engineer made a huge mistake, it costed him. I have had roads change signals aspects and meanings that i was not aware of, i would call the dispatcher of that area and ask them what it ment. they would look up the signal and read it. what amazes me is that they dont know what signal you have, they only know they lined you up. if this sounds like i stop my movement until i get a answer to my signals meaning . the answer is yes, and i have not been fired yet or even better nobody has been injured. but I do agree that differant roads have diferant meanings to signals, csxt has a yellow over green i have no idea what it means but on my road its approach diverging. all i know is if everything is red and no number plate. its stop no matter where you are.
In no way was I try to make an excuse for the Amtark engineer. I agree with you that one is supposed to be qualified on the territory they operate on and these differences be known and understood. However we do not live in a perfect world and we imperfect humans can and do screw up. As an example, my territory requires I deal with the CN USOR signal indications on the ex GTW. (Between Battle Creek and Chicago, Y/G changes from Appraoch Medium to Approach Diverging twice!) The NORAC signal indications on the NS in Toledo, OH and Conrail Shared Assets in Detroit, MI. On the CSX Toledo Terminal Subdivision I have to know the indications of the railroads that were the C&O, Seaboard and Conrail plus the early mentioned timetable special instruction signals not in conformity. When I worked into Chicago, I had to know the indications of the various roads we ran on. I also go into Canada so I must know the Canadian nomenclature for signals indications such as an Approach being called a Clear to Stop. Granted some of these signals end up being the same indications on all roads but it is the little subtle differences that cause the heartburn. I have caught myself calling the wrong signal across the cab as I did not change my thinking with the railroad. Fortunately I had a conductor go.... "Da what did you say?" And Oh ,by the way, we all do it.
Just think, this discussion so far has been about signals and their subtle differences. The subtle differences in operating rules hasn't been included......yet.
Y over Y on BNSF is Approach Medium. I hate that signal. You have a two headed signal so just make the *** yellow on top flash like a normal AM.
Chicago is a nightmare. THats why they give you the CORA book. If you want a good read and can pick onje up check the difference in rules and signals for all the different railroads. Makes your head swim.
Yes we are on time but this is yesterdays train
Keep talking Saxman and Wabash, interesting conversation.
Saxman, do you ever pull the coal trains out of Chicago? What is the normal horsepower/tonnage ratio that you can pull the hill at Valpo? Right now an EB (396) is sitting at Sedley with only one unit and 9000+tons, with snow falling. It sounds like they are going to get another unit for the run.
When I worked the west end both as a Road Foreman and engineer, the horsepower per ton on the coal trains was anywhere from .45 to .50 Horsepower per ton (HpT) depending on number of cars and tonnage per car. Horsepower per ton is the horsepower of the locomotives divided by the tonnage. To use your example of 396, you say he is 9000 tons. Let's assume he has an SD-75 which is rated at 4300 hp. 4300/9000 = .47 Hpt. If he has on of the GE's in the 25 or 2600 series he has 4400 hp available. 4400/9000 = .48 Hpt. Now if the power jocks decided that an old IC or GTW SD-40 was the engine for the job, the Hpt would be 3000/9000 = .33 Hpt. On a clear warm day with warm dry rail 396 most likely would make the hill at Valpo with the SD-75 or the GE. Heck he even might make it with a little bit of wet rail. Giving the fact you say it is snowing there it is probably getting problematic to make the hill with the SD-75 or GE. If he has the SD-40 one is asking for nothing but trouble.
As you are aware MP173, we do get into trouble on the "HILL" with the coal trains. When I wore my RFE hat, I would have to look at the tapes of the coal trains that got knuckles. Most of the trains that got knuckles were below .48 Hpt. The .45 to .47 Hpt range was most common for getting knuckles. It's not that the hill is steep its that it is curvy. The steepest part is only .88 %. It is also hard to get a run at the hill. If one is coming off of Main 2 at Sedely, they are going through a 40 mph turnout. It is down hill to Wayne untill just before the diamond where there is a little hog back then down toward the diamond. The Diamond has 45 mph speed restriction. Immediately after the diamond it is uphill and then into the first of the curves. If the train can make it to the depot in Valpo they will make the hill. I have gone by the resturant across the street from the depot on a warm summer night at about 3-4 mph. What a show and sound that was for the people outside on the patio. Where most of the problems arose was at the overhead bridge west of the depot by the bus lot. It's always wet under there and that is where most of the trains would slip and get the knuckle.
I know this is little off topic of the Y/Y indication and probably should have been a new thread. For your information Mp173 I now work out of Toledo, OH at Lang yard. I bounce back and forth between Lang and Flat Rock. I moved back to Flat Rock in 2005 under a provison in the hourly agreement. I miss the west end but I dont miss the hotel stays or what's going on in Battle Creek.
Feel free to E-Mail me with any questions and I wil try to answer them best I can.
The hill has been a great source of entertainment for us in Valpo. I moved here in 1977 and immediately was drawn to the depot. It was certainly fun to watch 3 GP9's get down on their hands and knees and make the crawl.
A couple of years ago my son (age 11 at the time) and I watched a coal train take about 5 minutes to get from the bridge to the depot. I figured it was down to about 1 mph, but kept on slugging it out.
Northsides Tap is a great place to watch trains, particularly in the summer, sitting out on the deck.
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Should perhaps nationalize the signal system and base it under PRR's standard or B&O CPL.
The old B&O CPL signals still exist on the Cincinnati - St. Louis line. Other than that, i am not sure where they are located. There might be a few in Chicago (Forest Park on the Altenheim Sub?)
Also the PRR signals are coming down. There are a few on the NS main at Whiting, In and west into the Southside of Chciago.
The Ann Arbor Railroad removed thier Pennsy position light signals that protected the Ann Arbor crossing with the CSX Toledo Terminal at Hallet Tower in Toledo, OH in the fall of 2007. It was sad to see such a piece of railroad history be discarded.
MP173 wrote: The old B&O CPL signals still exist on the Cincinnati - St. Louis line. Other than that, i am not sure where they are located. There might be a few in Chicago (Forest Park on the Altenheim Sub?) ed
Ed, what's left of the Altenheim Sub has been modernized with shrouded color-light signals. I suppose that the out-of-service portion might still have equally out-of-service CPLs.
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