BNSF registering railfans..smart idea

[al-in-chgo]

The website looks like they're being paranoid, trying to tie everything in with 9-11 and Homeland Security.

If it's supposedly a "homeland security" issue I don't buy it.  My trackside friends all love to play-up the importance of their hobby.  A lot of us have placed helpful calls to report danger - and plenty have wasted RR time and energy with unimportant stuff too.  Wouldn't it be cool if by railfanning we could provide a patriotic service to our nation?

The fact of the matter is that freight railroads would make a terrible terrorist target.  After hundreds of years of wrecks and disasters, the engineers who design and build rolling stock and the right of way have done a great job at improving rail safety.  It's to the point where a major derailment can be cleaned up and the line back in running order in no time - lately around here it's been under 24 hours (NS Sandusky line had a big wreck near Radnor a while back).

We've got the government protecing famous bridges from terrorists with R/C helicopters (those of us in that hobby know they don't have much payload) while the money spent patrolling landmarks could have saved lives if it were spent on better infrastructure maintenance in other cities.

Maybe I'm just not seeing it in the news but I can't remember the last time where a bridge used by a railroad (private company) fell apart under a train.  Last major bridge incident I recall was at Bayou Canot and it turned out that a barge had hit the structure.

It's great to see a railroad reaching out to railfans, but I'd be amazed if it amounted to anything beyond good PR in the end.  By all means, if you see something suspicious, report it - but it's far more likely to be local vandals than Tangos.  They'd be looking for mass casualties, long-term economic disruption, and general "terror". 

Lucky for railfans the expertise of the modern railroad industry results in minimal exposure on those fronts and makes them a terrible target.

All conspiracies aside, a common-sense interpretation of BNSF's action boils down to "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em."  After all, many of us expressed surprise that it took six years for a major RR to come up with such a program.  It has been in effect two years, so the citizen-responder concept apparently did not do more harm than good at the very least.  Better us out there than the gen pub because I imagine that as a group we are better informed on rail law, anti-terrorist law and (especially) recognizing infrastructure failures.  What I'm saying is that the CRS program is designed to take uncredential citizens like us, but the way BNSF is promoting it--with a DVD for the just-plain-interested and press releases aimed right at us, tends to keep it away from the self-appointed "Barney Fifes" as much as possible.  Not that such folk can be excluded totally.  -a.s.

 

[Convicted One]

I've been muddling around for 25 years on magazine subscription cards and such, making sure that the kind of folks who might sell my I.D. will at least make it obvious to me that it was they that  did it. 

OTOH thanks to the Patriot Act, if you apply for something for which address-verification could be important, say a credit card, you'll hear from the P.O. (or the merchant after it checks with the P.O.) if there are any discrepancies between their files and what we use.  If John Q. Abernathy of 1200 S Main St., Evanston,  IL  60202 applies that way, he may well get a return card (or e-mail) telling him that there is a discrepancy and wouldn't he prefer to keep using John Q. Abernathy / 1200 S. Main St. / Evanston IL 60202.  Just the kind of trivia computers are so good at.

To me this has kind of creepy "national security" undertones.  Your mail carrier doesn't really care  about typographical perfection as long as your initial and your last name are visible.  In maintaining the list, the USPS' attitude is basically "what's wrong with knowing who our customers are?" -- you know, PR covering an underlying need (or greed) for knowledge.

Sadly, it seems today that individual liberties are getting ploughed under in favor of government taking these little liberties themselves.  How far will this go?   - a. s.

 

 

There's a thin white line of integrity there. Applying for creditcards under cooked, or intentionally misleading  identities....is a crime. And I surely would not encourage anyone to break the law.

Using a middle initial versus not as part of an application (magazine subscription, web based customer support services, etc) or using an intentionally wron one, or some variation of your first name ( ex. John, vs Jon vs Jack vs Johnny) is something I've never been called on

I did start receiving junk mail in an intentionally erroneous format once, exactly matching the format I'd given to a website registration, where the owner made a blanket assurance that customer related information was kept under the strictest of confidence.

  

 

[switch7frg]

  Boyd; some months back I was sitting in my 18 wheeler at a grade crossing , I also heard a chatter . It turned out to be a loose brake shoe and 2 or 3 cars from me it broke free . It hit the ballast and arced over the hood of my truckand out of sight  ( cheap thrill time)  I felt the same way you did.Now I will sign on BNSF railfan. Respectfully Cannonball, another Jim

[SchemerBob]

Does anyone else find this a bit...I don't know, "intrusive" maybe?? Back in BN days, I used to take pictures from the sidewalk on a public road bridge going over Northtown yard. If I went back there now, I don't think anyone working for BNSF has any right to stop and question me as to what I'm doing, and second, if they do, why should I have to show them some printout showing I'm a "registered railfan". It's almost like saying I need to get a permit to do something that's already 100% legal. The website looks like they're being paranoid, trying to tie everything in with 9-11 and Homeland Security.

No. It's 100 percent voluntary. You seem to be quite uninformed about this program, yet are drawing erroneous conclusions.

Where does it say you have to (if and when questioned) produce a printout showing you are a registered railfan? If anyone is acting paranoid about this, it ain't BNSF.

I can see wjstix's point. BNSF has a railfan program that you can sign up with to report any problems. Frankly, I first thought this was a good idea and might sign up, but now I'm asking myself WHY BOTHER? Can't anyone who sees a problem report it to the railroad?

I may be jumping to conclutions, yes, but things like this are happening today. A program comes out that's "all voluntary" but pretty soon if you're not a part of the program you're in big trouble. BNSF officials could use this railfan program to force non-members away from the trackside, even if they're on public property. I don't know, but you have to realize it might happen, especially if a bunch of people sign up.

The NAIS and RFID-chip programs come to mind, which are two programs really being planned right now that will really take away lots of our liberties.

The way I see it, if I see a problem on the railroad, I'll report it. I don't need to be in any program to do that.

[wjstix]

I think it's odd they have a link to "Homeland Security" on the site, along with pictures from 9-11 and it's aftermath (firemen raising the flag). I don't think I'm a big believer in conspiracies and such (well OK I did have that crop circle in my backyard where I didn't cut the grass for a couple of months) but it does seem a lot of people - government in particular - has used 9-11 as an excuse for all kinds of things that wouldn't have been tolerated before 2001. "Support the Troops - 9-11!" has become the answer to everything. Gee, maybe torturing suspects is a bad idea?? "No, support the troops, 9-11!" Should the president be able to spy on people and tap their phones without a court order?? "Yes, support the troops, 9-11!".

O well maybe I'm just ornery. As Groucho Marx said, "I wouldn't belong to a club that would have me as a member"!!

[SchemerBob]

I think it's odd they have a link to "Homeland Security" on the site, along with pictures from 9-11 and it's aftermath (firemen raising the flag). I don't think I'm a big believer in conspiracies and such (well OK I did have that crop circle in my backyard where I didn't cut the grass for a couple of months) but it does seem a lot of people - government in particular - has used 9-11 as an excuse for all kinds of things that wouldn't have been tolerated before 2001. "Support the Troops - 9-11!" has become the answer to everything. Gee, maybe torturing suspects is a bad idea?? "No, support the troops, 9-11!" Should the president be able to spy on people and tap their phones without a court order?? "Yes, support the troops, 9-11!".

O well maybe I'm just ornery. As Groucho Marx said, "I wouldn't belong to a club that would have me as a member"!!

[al-in-chgo]

 

I think it's odd they have a link to "Homeland Security" on the site, along with pictures from 9-11 and it's aftermath (firemen raising the flag). I don't think I'm a big believer in conspiracies and such (well OK I did have that crop circle in my backyard where I didn't cut the grass for a couple of months) but it does seem a lot of people - government in particular - has used 9-11 as an excuse for all kinds of things that wouldn't have been tolerated before 2001. "Support the Troops - 9-11!" has become the answer to everything. Gee, maybe torturing suspects is a bad idea?? "No, support the troops, 9-11!" Should the president be able to spy on people and tap their phones without a court order?? "Yes, support the troops, 9-11!".

O well maybe I'm just ornery. As Groucho Marx said, "I wou.ldn't belong to a club that would have me as a member"!!

*************************

(Sorry, Bob Schemer and wjustix posts lost their quote blocks.)

To both the above gentlemen, Dittoes here too.  When you think of all the little things different levels of gov't can do to annoy or persecute is, it gets scary.  During the Nixon Administration, the Justice Dept. was given permission to photocopy the front and back of each $10,000-plus check.  But since there was no technology at that time to separate out that high a denomination from others, Justice (note irony) has for the past 35 years been photocopying ALL personal checks.  It was more or less a given even pre-9/11 that the police didn't need a tap permit to listen to what's going on in your house through those big digital "dishes" in vans; now, apparently, you don't have to be suspected of anything much to get a pen register (tap) -- even on hard-wired phones.  No "reasonable expectation of privacy"?  First-class mail is no longer inviolate, either.  When I mail a package to my e-pal in England, I have to waive all privacy and let either side's customs do as they will with the package.  A freedom to do something that cannot be invoked until it's revoked is a contradiction in terms, just like Social Security's calling its wage and payroll taxes "Contributions." 

Also, police really do use the "Lennie Briscoe" method of investigating.  They'll run someone's name through their elaborate computerized files to see if they've "got anything on him already."  One can stay "in the system" still for as little as a minor juvie crime or a twenty-year-old divorce.  Just lately, along with the classic winked-at overdocumentation, there exists the possibility of UNDERdocumentation.  On a federal scale, do we really have any idea of the numbers of people who were "taken in" and for how long?  The stats are not forthcoming; I've seen guesstimates on the order of two dozen to several thousands.  And no access to a lawyer.  The United States is not an authoritarian regime, but that sort of distortion is exactly what can turn a repulic into an authoritarian regime. 

Now the Patriot Act and following revisions were designed largely to make such information as above available as widely as possible so that the law-enforcement community can share, and at the same time deny it to the average "Dam* Citizen."  Power corrupts; and isn't there at least one nugget of rumor or half-truth we would not want an overzealous D.A. to bring up in open court?  (Or one of the new "covert courts," for that matter.)  We have indeed given away some of our most-cherished rights and principles, and indeed it's all made to seem the realm of patriotism and 9/11, just as earlier American electorates were swayed by calling anyone with a healthy regard for his personal liberties "subversive" or "pink" or "anarchist" and huzzah-ing "Remember the Maine!"  Remember 9/11, indeed.

Okay, the last thing I'll say here may strike some as silly, but it works for me.  In a recent Star Wars picture, Queen Padne Amidala of Naboo observes her people vigorously advocating to join the so-called Galactic Republic, later Galactic Empire, and says something on the likes of, "So this is how a people surrenders its freedom, to its own cheers and applause."  Huzzah!  I mean, who could be against the Orwellian-named "Patriot Act," it would probably beat any proposed "Mom and Apple Pie Act" for sheer distortion and fraud.  Ditto for "Homeland Security."

 

[Poppa_Zit]

Here we go again... the old, tired rant about losing rights.

Does anyone think this might qualify as a political discussion?

[al-in-chgo]

Here we go again... the old, tired rant about losing rights.

Does anyone think this might qualify as a political discussion?

Nobody has mentioned electoral politics that I know of.  -  a. s.

 

[SD60M]

I think I was one of the first because my number is in the 2006-250s and I joined on the first day. Where they at now number-wise?

I'm 2007-0763.  I registered about a month ago.

I joined 2 days ago and im #2007-1348.

[Poppa_Zit]

Here we go again... the old, tired rant about losing rights.

Does anyone think this might qualify as a political discussion?

Nobody has mentioned electoral politics that I know of.  -  a. s.

 

I think critcism of government methods and policies qualifies as a political discussion.

[Convicted One]

politics and government administration are NOT one in the same.

If one's confidence in the rightness or wrongness of this government is so frail that they cannot tolerate  witnessing  criticism of proceedure, then perhaps that person's confidence is where the problem is? And likely for good reason.

[Poppa_Zit]

politics and government administration are NOT one in the same.

If one's confidence in the rightness or wrongness of this government is so frail that they cannot tolerate  witnessing  criticism of proceedure, then perhaps that person's confidence is where the problem is? And likely for good reason.

Dear AntiGates, Dweezil, Convicted One and whatever other insecure personas you hide behind:

I can tolerate criticism of these things. But not here, where the topic is trains. I've already exposed your misplaced motivations, so no need to elaborate.

And there endeth the discussion.

[Convicted One]

But not here, where the topic is trains. I've already exposed your misplaced motivations, so no need to elaborate.

What you exposed were your own delusions. As amusing as they were truly pathetic

Nimby bashing is political in nature as well, yet you never seem to launch your hissy fits against the source of those. wonder why?

[tstage]

Obviously, this thread has pretty much deteriorated into a political discussion and name calling.  If you should desire to continue this conversation with one another in private, please be my guest.  However, I'm locking this because I don't see it getting any better.

Tom