I got this from a homelessness in our time email list. To me it sounds as if the homeless are crying that they are being picked on again. Or is the UP officer pulling rank?
The attacks against Fresno's homeless. This incident involves a rogue officer from the Union Pacific Railroad who apparantly slit open a homeless persons tent, roughed up a homeless person and took his tools.
4 guys were at a tent near the railroad tracks, not far from San Benito and H street when a large SUV drove by. They say the vehicle dorve by all of the tents that the homeless live in - next to the railway tracks - and stopped at the last one in the row. An officer got out of the vehicle and demanded that whoever was in the tent to come out. There was nobody in the tent at the time. The 4 homeless men told the officer that no one was in the tent. Then the officer used a megaphone to demand that the person in the tent come out then took out a knife, drew his gun and slit open the side of the tent, to find out no one was there.
One of the homeless jumped up and said "hey, you can't do that, that's private property, we have a restraining order against the city and you can't harass us like this." The rail officer holstered his gun, pulled out a can of mace and began shaking it. The officer told the 4 men not to come any closer. They stayed 10 feet away.
Then the officer grabbed one of the men, ripped off his bag and shoved him into the SUV, hitting the homeless mans head of top of the door. The officer than was to have given a verbal warning to the others that they had until midnight to get their stuff out of here. Which was have to been September 18th.
This attack is to be part of a long series of attacks against the homeless by a Union Pacific officer in Fresno. There is to be a preliminary injunction against the City of Fresno because they were taking and immediately destroying homeless peoples property. A Federal court judge had to order the City Of Fresno and Caltrans to stop violating homeless peoples constitutional rights.
Questions asked were: Does Union Pacific believe they are above the law? Will they be back to destroy any homeless encampments in the future? Is Union Pacific operating on their own or are they proxies for the city in a tag team attack on the homeless? If these attacks continue, will legal representatives stand up and defend these homeless people rights?
There might be more to this story, don't you think?
1. Are these homeless people camped out on UP's own private property (and believe that they have the RIGHT to be)? Let's assume here that they are, and go to item #2 below.
2. If a train derails and injures or kills any of them, is it a safe bet that they or their now-deeply-concerned surviving family members will come suing for megabuck$?
Considering how poorly mere railfan photographers are getting treated near rights-of-way these days, often even without any trespassing, what should someone who makes camp reasonably expect?
The UP policeman might be going over the top here and has no right to take anyone else's possessions, but is probably within his authority in aggressively moving the guys off the property.
With all due respect to the initial poster, NOBODY has a Constitutional right to move onto private property and set up camp without the owner's permission and against the owner's wishes. If, as it sounds, these people are on UP property, the railroad has every right to remove them, for their own safety if for no other reason. (I wonder how he'd react if some of them came along and pitched tents on his front lawn.)
Isn't it interesting that all those people who had been avoiding their homeless relatives for years suddenly crawl out of the woodwork when a possibility of making money on an injury suit raises its ugly head. (Can you say, "Hypocrite?")
Chuck
No such incident has been reported in the news. The fight between the homeless and the City of Fresno, including the PD, has been covered in the media. If the homeless are not afraid to speak out against the FPD, why would the be afraid to speak out against the UPRR PD? I have serious doubts that the story is even true.
"No soup for you!" - Yev Kassem (from Seinfeld)
When i was working we had homeless"camps" that were near one of our yards. We would wander around the camp and then leave. It was interesting they would have stew in a pot and mirrors for shaving and such.
In a nutshell (from a nutcase): it's the railroad's property. I won't defend any outrageous behavior by the cop, but if that's what it takes to extricate whatever roots this person has put down on land that wasn't his, so be it.
In today's UTU news digest I saw two stories that speak to the story and the issue. Norfolk Southern has announced plans to bulldoze a homeless camp on its property in Chattanooga (I'm sure the protest news articles will come later), and a person near St. Louis has sued the railroad--NS again--for injuries sustained by his/her child as he crossed through a train at a coupling on his way to school, using a "well-established" shortcut across railroad property. The train shouldn't have been stopped there! the railroad should have had guards there! they should put a fence there! the school system should have done something! the city should have provided a way for the kid to get to school safely! It sounds ridiculous to those of us who know better, but that may not apply to the legal system in southern Illinois.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
From an old roadmaster that dealt with homeless in the LA Terminal:
(2) City officials frequently cite and fine railroads when they see homeless camps on the railroad property. (Never mind those same city officials herded them onto the railroad in the first place)..
(3) Railroad R/W is supposed to be private property. (Now a certain forum poster will come out of the woodwork screaming "easement"!)Those same city officials in "2" have taken lately to claiming that railroad R/W is what ever they want it to be if it gets in the way of a pet project such as what happens in Indiana.
(4) Ever see the cleanup bills the railroads absorb from these homeless folks? Frightening.
(5) Anyone disagreeing with Carl might want to see the issue firsthand, up close and in real colors. That is, if you can handle people coming at you with knives, dirty syringe needles, spitting at you (AIDS), the TransV's, throwing excrement and all the other not-so-fun stuff.
(6) How many times have the tresspassers been told to leave and ignored the warnings?
Somehow the folks in the article would have you believe that they are somehow exempt from consequences for their actions.
mudchicken wrote: From an old roadmaster that dealt with homeless in the LA Terminal:(1) Story sounds conveniently fabricated to advance a cause. (pity party anyone?)(2) City officials frequently cite and fine railroads when they see homeless camps on the railroad property. (Never mind those same city officials herded them onto the railroad in the first place)..(3) Railroad R/W is supposed to be private property. (Now a certain forum poster will come out of the woodwork screaming "easement"!)Those same city officials in "2" have taken lately to claiming that railroad R/W is what ever they want it to be if it gets in the way of a pet project such as what happens in Indiana.(4) Ever see the cleanup bills the railroads absorb from these homeless folks? Frightening.(5) Anyone disagreeing with Carl might want to see the issue firsthand, up close and in real colors. That is, if you can handle people coming at you with knives, dirty syringe needles, spitting at you (AIDS), the TransV's, throwing excrement and all the other not-so-fun stuff. (6) How many times have the tresspassers been told to leave and ignored the warnings?Somehow the folks in the article would have you believe that they are somehow exempt from consequences for their actions.
The excrement throwing TransV's, in particular, need to be reeled in under control.
Doc Murdock wrote:I've rubbed shoulders with the homeless for several years now. Most of them think Life and those working owes them a living just they are homeless and poor. When the Goody Good Liberals smell a big buck coming their way when they can stand up for the poor. What the homeless here don't realize is that private property is private property and they can't set up camps there as they wish.
Gee, "Doc", you make it sound like being "liberal" is a bad thing. May I suggest you look up the definition of the word, and then tell me what is so wrong with it.
zardoz wrote: Doc Murdock wrote:I've rubbed shoulders with the homeless for several years now. Most of them think Life and those working owes them a living just they are homeless and poor. When the Goody Good Liberals smell a big buck coming their way when they can stand up for the poor. What the homeless here don't realize is that private property is private property and they can't set up camps there as they wish.Gee, "Doc", you make it sound like being "liberal" is a bad thing. May I suggest you look up the definition of the word, and then tell me what is so wrong with it.
Well, unfortunatly for the homeless, I believe that the previous post referring to the possibility of a lawsuit dictates that the UP should work to remove the homeless from their property. They dont have to hire thugs to do, however...
Just like in other professions, I am sure there are some RR cops who are professional when going about their business, and would feel compassion for those in less fortunate circumstances. But I am also sure there are wanna-be's who like the job bacause they get to enforce their will on others, be it right or wrong.
IF there needs to be a haven for homeless, it needs to be under the auspices of the local community and the appropriate services, from welfare to law enforcement. That's what homeless shelters are all about. To expect a private coproation, no matter how large it is, to shoulder the burden and the liability that may be involved in unrealistic.
And that is before we consider the requirements of Transportation Security...what a perfect cover for people who want to cause Mayhem, hanging out in what used to be called a Hobo camp...
CPRTED, thanks for the defination of Big verses Little "L" liberal....as a recovering republican, I need to know more about that end of the spectrum. Which one would you consider more centrist?
About 45 years ago, when I was still on the Police Department's Accident Squad, I investigated a case which occurred on a hot summer day on a stub end track next to a grain elevator near the Sarah Avenue yard office on the old Wabash. A hobo wanted to get some sleep and the only shade he could find was alongside a string of boxcars on the tracks. He rolled around in his sleep and got his feet across the track.
A switch crew coupled on the end and pulled the cars out. His feet were cut off neatly at the ankles. I won't go into any more details, but the hobo survived and left town, presumably on crutches, and I never heard anything about him again.
The only reason I mention this is that there was never any lawsuit and never any family contact. Being the reporting officer, I would have known if there had been. I agree that the UP officer was very overbearing in this case, but this is one of the results of letting hobos make a home out of railroad property.
Ishmael wrote:I agree that the UP officer was very overbearing in this case, but this is one of the results of letting hobos make a home out of railroad property.
That assumes what was in the e-mail actually happened.
CShaveRR wrote: In a nutshell (from a nutcase): it's the railroad's property. I won't defend any outrageous behavior by the cop, but if that's what it takes to extricate whatever roots this person has put down on land that wasn't his, so be it.In today's UTU news digest I saw two stories that speak to the story and the issue. Norfolk Southern has announced plans to bulldoze a homeless camp on its property in Chattanooga (I'm sure the protest news articles will come later), and a person near St. Louis has sued the railroad--NS again--for injuries sustained by his/her child as he crossed through a train at a coupling on his way to school, using a "well-established" shortcut across railroad property. The train shouldn't have been stopped there! the railroad should have had guards there! they should put a fence there! the school system should have done something! the city should have provided a way for the kid to get to school safely! It sounds ridiculous to those of us who know better, but that may not apply to the legal system in southern Illinois.
Oh yea Alorton,Il ( no its not east st.louis ) not to down play this law suit . but in st,clair county the railroad dosnt even have a chance. the railroad is not guilty in no way shape or form but they will lose, in illinois there is 2 places you want to try your cases cook county and st.clair county, yes this is a well known traveled short cut, Oh its real fun to be comming into town blowing like crazy only to have these resposible kids play chicken with you moving out of your way when you get 100 ft from them, Its more fun at night i just shut the lights off they all run then, or when they break the engine windows throwing rocks, what is this mother going to buy with her new found wealth 3 more rocks a day? how much of that money will her son ( remeber him) get for his rehabilitation and rebuilding his foot.? It says they shouldnt have a train stopped there ( its a interchange track and a siding and we can stop trains there as we please,) and it says they should have a barrier there a fence LOL they only last 24 hrs before they are destroyed. Hey i have a totally new concept.... HOW about making yourself accountable for your actions......... NO that never work to much common sense.
This topic brings up a real set of mixed emotions for me. The subject matter is far more complicated than just a "Bum on the Street[ or RR]." These individuals seem to be in the position of homelessness, because of a series of bad choices made by them in their own lives. There is a Social Support structure in our society that provides some level of care for these folks,IF they seek it out.
Most of them choose to be living the lifestyle of 'Urban Outdoorsman' for whatever reason they might have individually chosen, either socially or psychologically. They move about the country by hitchiking,and most certainly stealing rides on trains, as well as cadging money for bus fare, etc. The choice being theirs to make. Many are mentally incapacitated, pushed out onto the streets by a public mental health system that has over the years ceased to be a service to those in need of true mental health assistance, as various state agencies have gotten out of the large, fixed facility in-patient care mode and into a mode of 'privatising' case management and putting patients into group homes with little or no security, and certainly, minimal supervision.
We have a culture, that dates back to the Depression of the 1930's in which the railroads became the poor man's favored method to get out and find work. Hobo's then were more understood, and even facilitated by those in the rest of society- provided handouts, places to sleep for a night, and an expectation of a small amount of work from the Hobo--chop stove wood, paint a fence, etc. Those Hobo's even created a kind of sign language that would direct other Hobos to a place where they would be treated either kindly, or directed then to steer clear of; they actually had a certain level of ethics that most adheared to as they moved about the country. It was WORK that these hobos sought and were not necessarily afraid of. Today's Urban Outdoorsman has a totally different morality, they are opportunistic predators who seem to have very little compunction or morality, They seem that society in general owes them whatever they want at the time.
The railroads are still a place where these individuals gravitate to for transportation, shelter, and anything they can convert to cash, for drugs, drink, etc. The railroad cop patrols an area in which the potentials for personal harm, by ambush, or confrontation with multiple individuals, potentailly armed with whatever weapon they have at hand or have brought with them, is a real possibility. These conditions would make many cops nervous and edgy and overreactive to meet aggression with aggression.
samfp1943 wrote: . The railroads are still a place where these individuals gravitate to for transportation, shelter, and anything they can convert to cash, for drugs, drink, etc. The railroad cop patrols an area in which the potentials for personal harm, by ambush, or confrontation with multiple individuals, potentailly armed with whatever weapon they have at hand or have brought with them, is a real possibility. These conditions would make many cops nervous and edgy and overreactive to meet aggression with aggression.
.
No argument about this from me. I investigated a case where a RR Cop on the ICRR was transferred to E. St. Louis from Paducah. His partner, an old hand, told him to stay on the property. They jumped up a couple thieves and the young fellow took off in pursuit while his partner hollered at him to stop. He went around a corner and the partner told me it sounded like WWII. The young fellow was killed and the murderers were never found.
Wabash1, Alorton adjoins E. St. Louis. It was named after Aluminum Company of America and drew all its workers from E. St. Louis. The generous county you mention is not St. Clair, but Madison, the next county north. Some of the judges have been retired and money is not as easy to get as it once was.
And I don't want to get into a drawn out argument, but I worked personal injury cases for over 30 years and it isn't as easy to get money out of RRs as most people think. They may tell their employees so, but they're very tight.
samfp1943 wrote: This topic brings up a real set of mixed emotions for me. The subject matter is far more complicated than just a "Bum on the Street[ or RR]." These individuals seem to be in the position of homelessness, because of a series of bad choices made by them in their own lives. There is a Social Support structure in our society that provides some level of care for these folks,IF they seek it out. Most of them choose to be living the lifestyle of 'Urban Outdoorsman' for whatever reason they might have individually chosen, either socially or psychologically. They move about the country by hitchiking,and most certainly stealing rides on trains, as well as cadging money for bus fare, etc. The choice being theirs to make. Many are mentally incapacitated, pushed out onto the streets by a public mental health system that has over the years ceased to be a service to those in need of true mental health assistance, as various state agencies have gotten out of the large, fixed facility in-patient care mode and into a mode of 'privatising' case management and putting patients into group homes with little or no security, and certainly, minimal supervision.We have a culture, that dates back to the Depression of the 1930's in which the railroads became the poor man's favored method to get out and find work. Hobo's then were more understood, and even facilitated by those in the rest of society- provided handouts, places to sleep for a night, and an expectation of a small amount of work from the Hobo--chop stove wood, paint a fence, etc. Those Hobo's even created a kind of sign language that would direct other Hobos to a place where they would be treated either kindly, or directed then to steer clear of; they actually had a certain level of ethics that most adheared to as they moved about the country. It was WORK that these hobos sought and were not necessarily afraid of. Today's Urban Outdoorsman has a totally different morality, they are opportunistic predators who seem to have very little compunction or morality, They seem that society in general owes them whatever they want at the time. The railroads are still a place where these individuals gravitate to for transportation, shelter, and anything they can convert to cash, for drugs, drink, etc. The railroad cop patrols an area in which the potentials for personal harm, by ambush, or confrontation with multiple individuals, potentailly armed with whatever weapon they have at hand or have brought with them, is a real possibility. These conditions would make many cops nervous and edgy and overreactive to meet aggression with aggression.
There was the story a few years ago about a "homeless" guy living in Chicago who somehow anointed himself "official" spokesman for all the other homeless people (no kidding, he claimed they were "organized") and would constantly seek out opportunities to step in front of TV cameras to talk about the "rights" of the homeless. This in response to a flock of growingly aggressive beggars accosting shoppers on the Magnificent Mile, Michigan Avenue -- and the Chicago police shagging them away constantly. These busts would walk right up to people on the sidewalk, getting in their faces and intimidate them into coughing up a few bucks. (Ever have someone ask you for five dollars to buy a cup of coffee?) The "spokesman" talked about how "unfortunate" he and the others were, they were trying to get back on their feet, blah, blah, blah.
So one of the more skeptical newspaper columnists found a willing landlord who offered the guy free rent in a small, furnished apartment and another man who owned a business who offered the homeless guy a job at well above minimum wage.
And you know what? The "spokesman" turned down both offers! Then the columnist did some more research and discovered some of his beggar-buddies were knocking down $200 to $300 A DAY in CASH (yes, undeclared income) and didn't want to take a real job. And they jealously guarded "their territory", too!
I'm not saying that some homeless haven't had extreme runs of bad luck, but am trying to point out that some have turned their 24/7 Pity Party into a lucrative business.
And there's no way to differentiate them.
Ishmael wrote: And I don't want to get into a drawn out argument, but I worked personal injury cases for over 30 years and it isn't as easy to get money out of RRs as most people think. They may tell their employees so, but they're very tight.
You don't have to tell the employees that railroads are tight....they know that to be true...FIRST HAND!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Ishmael wrote: samfp1943 wrote: . The railroads are still a place where these individuals gravitate to for transportation, shelter, and anything they can convert to cash, for drugs, drink, etc. The railroad cop patrols an area in which the potentials for personal harm, by ambush, or confrontation with multiple individuals, potentailly armed with whatever weapon they have at hand or have brought with them, is a real possibility. These conditions would make many cops nervous and edgy and overreactive to meet aggression with aggression. No argument about this from me. I investigated a case where a RR Cop on the ICRR was transferred to E. St. Louis from Paducah. His partner, an old hand, told him to stay on the property. They jumped up a couple thieves and the young fellow took off in pursuit while his partner hollered at him to stop. He went around a corner and the partner told me it sounded like WWII. The young fellow was killed and the murderers were never found.Wabash1, Alorton adjoins E. St. Louis. It was named after Aluminum Company of America and drew all its workers from E. St. Louis. The generous county you mention is not St. Clair, but Madison, the next county north. Some of the judges have been retired and money is not as easy to get as it once was.And I don't want to get into a drawn out argument, but I worked personal injury cases for over 30 years and it isn't as easy to get money out of RRs as most people think. They may tell their employees so, but they're very tight.
No the county i speak of and is generous is St. Clair county madison county is not even in the running they dont pay out near as much to the plaintiff as st.clair county. and yes alorton is next to east st. louis and is also in st. clair county, you dont get to madison county until you get about 2 miles from granite city. NS lost a law suit in st.clair county several years ago. I know its not easy getting money out of the railroads.
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