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[quote user="penncentral2002"][quote user="n012944"][quote user="futuremodal"] Do you really want to go down this path?What percentage of Mississippi River navigation should we allocate as being "natural", and what percentage shall we designate as "unnatural"? [/quote]I think it should be very easy to allocate.  Any part of the river that needs to be altered, being a dredging operation or locks, for safe navigatioin of barges and the tugs that go with them, should be considered unnatural.  Most rivers, in their natural state, could not safely handle the size and amount of tugs that are using them now. Bert[/quote]Exactly - or from a more historical view is to compare what type of navigation existed historically.  Of course, when you are talking to someone who ignores the obvious and constantly throws out red herrings, its pretty much impossible to make any ground.  Thus, merely pointing out to futuremodal that the type of navigation that exists on the inland river system today would not exist without massive taxpayer investments which cost a lot of money and environmental (and other) costs does no good, because he'll just throw out a new red herring.  Hence, the new red herring is the EIS statements - while ranting about EIS statement costs as only being red tape may play well on AM talk radio where there is no opposing side present, it doesn't work with the real world.  See, the problem is that futuremodal will not concede that the actions of dredging a river initially and later are in fact the same action - so that navigation channel creation dredging and navigation maintanance dredging are the same - hence an EIS statement is required for both.  While railroad (or road for that matter) construction and railroad maintainance do not have the same environmental impacts.  The maintainance doesn't add any harm that is still there.  Also, remember that while a railline will have local impact, the water in your local river eventually flows into the ocean where ocean currents will carry it around the world or it will evaporate and fall as rain on you.  BTW, futuremodal - go to the STB website and read any abandonment application - as you'd see, railroads are required to declare the environmental impact of abandoning a line - including whether line removal would have any effect on the environment.  Also check with the EPA about how many railyards got listed under CERLA as Superfund sites (including Potomac Yard in Alexandria, VA as one example).  EIS statements aren't red tape - they are a way to avoid spending a much larger sum of money later (not to mention health loss).  Sometimes you need to spend money to save money. [/quote](OT)  So, what's all this sudden reference to "AM talk radio" of late?  There's been a lot of throwing out this little catch-phrase by the far-lefties on this forum.  I was wondering if your Grand Master George Soros has issued new marching orders for the rank 'n file?[X-)]  Just for the record, opposing views are always omitted from your mainstream news sources.So how does that red herring taste when your side cooks it?[xx(]Back to the subject at hand.......Penncentral2002:  If I may, I'll play a little Devil's Advocate for the benefit of your education.....If you are really concerned about "massive taxpayer subsidies" in developing the Mississippi River navigation system, shall we make a comparison of the railroad land grants to the appropriations for navigation during same said era?  Or do you consider that an "apples and oranges" comparison?  If you are really concerned about environmental costs, what about the permanent environmental damage caused by the haphazard methods of railroad construction during this era?  What about the legacy costs of fuel spills, et al?Do not drainage conduits and streams run under railroad ROW while maintenance is being performed?  Do not those same streams flow into our lakes and rivers?How much human waste has been jettisoned out of passenger trains directly onto railroad ROW's over the years?  How many creosite-soaked ties have been tossed aside into waterways during routine maintenance over the years?Etc, etc, etc.At least waterway dredging is taking what is already in the river and either moving it to another portion of the river or taking it out all together.  They're not adding anything potentially hazardous to the river, hence the wasteful illogic of requiring an EIS for regular maintenance.Are you also oblivious to the need for synchronizing multi-modal interplay to optimize the nation's transportation network, at least for the benefit of US producers?  Remember, railroad companies are transportation companies.  Since railroad capacity is constrained right now while waterway capacity is ample, wouldn't it make sense to transload certain commodities on certian corridors from rail to barge for the benefit of the supply chain?  As far as I know, there is no law preventing railroad companies from operating in other modes, either directly or via an intercompany 3pl.To get back to the statement of Mr. White of the AAR, it seems somewhat contradictory that an industry seemingly maxed out in capacity would be soliciting for business simply because it is being moved by barge.  If the railroad in question actually gets this business from the barge lines, I wonder what current railroad customer will suddenly be told that his business is no longer wanted, in order to make room for these new unit coal trains?  Indeed, if this scenario is a case of kicking out current business to make room for the new business, will it also be a case of inadvertently settling for a lesser revenue source?And the coup d'grace - any bets that the railroad in question will eventually be soliciting the federal government for financial aid to help keep the tracks inline?  Current trends suggest that the answer is "yes". BTW - do you guys sate your red herring, or do you prefer it poached?[:D]
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