Below is my newly revised track plan. This in an N scale layout, 17'X17'. The scheme focuses on interchange traffic (BNSF interchanging with UP, FW&W, and WT&J) as well as pleanty of online switching. The yard to the extreme left is a hidden staging yard, the black line in front representing a backdrop. Let me know what you think.
Ron
Owner and superintendant of the N scale Texas Colorado & Western Railway, a protolanced representaion of the BNSF from Fort Worth, TX through Wichita Falls TX and into Colorado.
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Ron,
Could you post it again without the green background. I'm having trouble seeing it.
Also, you might get better results in the Layout Forum. Here they get off the page before people can take the time to analyze them.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
other than no way to turn trains (or even just engines) around , it certainly looks good on paper . what i'm thinking is a train leaves staging heading north (assuming up on your drawing is north) goes around the layout and reenters staging . wouldn't you then want to turn the engine so the train could come back from whereever it went instead of leaving staging heading north again ? obviosly it wouldn't be the same train since you could switch all the cars in the staging yard , but the engines would be reappearing at the 'south' end of the layout without any way to have gotten there .
am i clear ? does it matter ?
looks like a fun layout with tons of switching and room for nice long trains
ereimer wrote: other than no way to turn trains (or even just engines) around , it certainly looks good on paper . what i'm thinking is a train leaves staging heading north (assuming up on your drawing is north) goes around the layout and reenters staging . wouldn't you then want to turn the engine so the train could come back from whereever it went instead of leaving staging heading north again ? obviosly it wouldn't be the same train since you could switch all the cars in the staging yard , but the engines would be reappearing at the 'south' end of the layout without any way to have gotten there .am i clear ? does it matter ? looks like a fun layout with tons of switching and room for nice long trains
It's kinda hard for me to tell what's going on. I seem to see a track on the right that doesn't connect to anything.
You could use a double main pretty much everywhere on the track. It will allow you to run both directions, and as was pointed out, you can't turn trains.
But other than that, it seems this is a layout, in spite of it's size, is designed for one person to run--several people with a good dispatcher. The reason I say this is that there is lots of switching, but you pretty much always have to use the main for switching. And while it looks like you have a double main, well if you do, you're sharing all your yard leads with your road engines.
For the most part you provide runarounds where needed, however, to switch into Decatur you have to use the runaround in your yard and go all the way to Saginaw, or Wichita falls, and leave your train parked on the main or push it to Decatur and back.
Since you want to do so much yard work. I suggest two pieces of reading.
What is a yard lead?
http://www.chipengelmann.com/trains/Beginner/YardLead.html
The Ten Commandments of Yard Design.
http://www.housatonicrr.com/yard_des.html
n2mopac wrote: My layout is set in Summer, 2000. I use only modern diesel equipment, and most of my mainline trains running in and out of staging are MU'ed, so one engine would be facing forward in either direction.
Now you may decide not to listen, but you have a lot of space. Doesn't it make sense to at least consider that is may be something that is desirable?
You have an operations intense railroad. How do you intend to manage traffic flow? Do you know the needs of your industries, or are they just places?
SpaceMouse wrote: It's kinda hard for me to tell what's going on. I seem to see a track on the right that doesn't connect to anything. You could use a double main pretty much everywhere on the track. It will allow you to run both directions, and as was pointed out, you can't turn trains. But other than that, it seems this is a layout, in spite of it's size, is designed for one person to run--several people with a good dispatcher. The reason I say this is that there is lots of switching, but you pretty much always have to use the main for switching. And while it looks like you have a double main, well if you do, you're sharing all your yard leads with your road engines. For the most part you provide runarounds where needed, however, to switch into Decatur you have to use the runaround in your yard and go all the way to Saginaw, or Wichita falls, and leave your train parked on the main or push it to Decatur and back. Since you want to do so much yard work. I suggest two pieces of reading.What is a yard lead? http://www.chipengelmann.com/trains/Beginner/YardLead.htmlThe Ten Commandments of Yard Design. http://www.housatonicrr.com/yard_des.html
The single/double main portions are based on the prototype as well. I plan to run it primarily as a single main throughout. The second track on the end of the peninsula will serve as North Yard's main switching lead. The second track above and right of North Yard will serve as an industrial lead to Saginal industries as well as a passing siding.
Decatur and Bowie on the prototype are switched by a twice-weekly local that runs North Yard to Wichita Falls and back. These towns are switched on the return trip to avoid facing point switches.
Operationally, the layout is designed to utilize the following crew: a dispatcher, a yardmaser for North Yard, a two man crew to run interchanges and locals out of North Yard, a two man crew to run manifest and through freights out of and into staging, and a possible two man crew to run the turn from Nort Yard to Wichita Falls.
SpaceMouse wrote: n2mopac wrote: My layout is set in Summer, 2000. I use only modern diesel equipment, and most of my mainline trains running in and out of staging are MU'ed, so one engine would be facing forward in either direction.Now you may decide not to listen, but you have a lot of space. Doesn't it make sense to at least consider that is may be something that is desirable? You have an operations intense railroad. How do you intend to manage traffic flow? Do you know the needs of your industries, or are they just places?
As far as traffic flow, I plan to use a sequential "timetable" that will run manifest freights out of staging. Locals will run following the arrival of specific manifest freights. All of this will be coordinated by a dispatcher. The real test operationally falls in the lap of the Nort Yard yardmaster who has to get drops from and for the through freights classified in good order. Car forwarding will be handled by 4 part waybills.
With a hidden staging yard against the wall, have you given thought to access. Staging yards are often used as fiddle yards where consists can be changed, and equipment added/removed from the layout by hand. That would be difficult with your arrangement unless the backdrop can be easily removed and reinstalled. Even if you don't want to use it as a fiddle yard, you will occasionally need access to fix derailments. Coupling and uncoupling operations would be blind as well.
n2mopac wrote: The track that doesn't connect is asthetic mostly. This is based on a prototype, and in that area of Saginaw, TX a UP main runs right beside the BNSF main. I decided to lay that track for looks and use it as my programming track.The single/double main portions are based on the prototype as well. I plan to run it primarily as a single main throughout. The second track on the end of the peninsula will serve as North Yard's main switching lead. The second track above and right of North Yard will serve as an industrial lead to Saginal industries as well as a passing siding.Decatur and Bowie on the prototype are switched by a twice-weekly local that runs North Yard to Wichita Falls and back. These towns are switched on the return trip to avoid facing point switches.Operationally, the layout is designed to utilize the following crew: a dispatcher, a yardmaser for North Yard, a two man crew to run interchanges and locals out of North Yard, a two man crew to run manifest and through freights out of and into staging, and a possible two man crew to run the turn from Nort Yard to Wichita Falls.Ron
The track that doesn't connect is asthetic mostly. This is based on a prototype, and in that area of Saginaw, TX a UP main runs right beside the BNSF main. I decided to lay that track for looks and use it as my programming track.
Thanks,
That clears up a lot. It was hard to tell what was going on--partly because of the green background makes reading the lettering and track-work difficult. But the track plan was difficult as well. In some ways it reminded me of a beginner putting a lot of track down and switching willy-nilly. On the other hand, I remember you doing a lot of research on this area about 6 months back. And there were solutions to every obstacle--but sometimes you had to work to find them.
That was why the questions about the industries. Your answer told me which way to think.
The solution is simple, move back to Texas and we'll build this thing together!! I have a hard time explaining here how much Railroad there is in this area. If you don't mind i'm going to PM you about some of your "homework"
mac
jecorbett wrote: With a hidden staging yard against the wall, have you given thought to access. Staging yards are often used as fiddle yards where consists can be changed, and equipment added/removed from the layout by hand. That would be difficult with your arrangement unless the backdrop can be easily removed and reinstalled. Even if you don't want to use it as a fiddle yard, you will occasionally need access to fix derailments. Coupling and uncoupling operations would be blind as well.
I suppose that does look strange on this diagram. In fact the entire layout is in the middle of one end of my unfinished basement (I don't own the house) and I can walk all the way around the outside, ergo i have complete access to the staging yard from outside the layout area.
n2mopac wrote:The scheme focuses on interchange traffic (BNSF interchanging with UP, FW&W, and WT&J) as well as pleanty of online switching.
The yard to the extreme left is a hidden staging yard,
Ok, the labels are hard to read, so let me walk you through the thing. At the far left is my hidden staging yard which connect to both ends of this point-to-point shceme. Moving west (up) out of staging we first pass downtown yard in Fort Worth at the upper left of the peninsula. This is the site of a live interchange with UP, represented by the track against the backdrop here. Continuing west (down the peninsula now) we cross the trinity river and pass by Hodge Jct (yard at the end of the peninsula), the site of interchange with the Fort Worth & Western (FW&W). I added enoug track here to repreent FW&W's modest locomotive servicing facility as per the prototype.
Moving further west (up the right side of the peninsula) we enter the main yard on the layout, North Yard in Saginaw, TX. This yard includes and A/D track, 6 doubled ended class tracks, 3 stub ended class tracks, 3 industries, a car cleaning track, a RIP track, and an enging servicing track, as well as a thourouhfare and passing track. Operation in this yard wil be the pivot around which the layout's operations revolve. Continuing west (up) we move into Saginaw proper and pass sidings for Payless Cashways (lumber) Universal Forest Products (large lumber distributor) before reaching ADM's large grain elevator complex, served by a three-track siding (double ended, looks like a yard in itself). This elevator is the largest in TX and can handle a lot of cars--is even served by its own switcher. That is why it seems so major on the layout--it is. Continuing through Saginaw we also pass sidings for Quality Carriers, Koch materials, and Trinity Industries Railcar plant.
Through Saginaw you will not what appears to be a double main. It isn't. The first part of this second track in the direction I have described is the switching lead for North Yard. The portion past North Yard is in industrial switching lead and doubles as a long passing siding. Also note the loop that goes behind ADM with a "passing track" along the backdrop. This represents a prototypical interchange with BNSF's Alliance sub leading to its huge intermodal fcility in Alliance, TX. I will have Intermodal traffic running from staging in the west into this interchange as per the prototype.
Continuing past Saginaw, we enter the town of Decatur (lower right corner) and Poco Graphite. This siding as well as the one in the next town, Bowie, are switched in the oposite direction (east bound) to avoid facing point spurrs with no runaround here. At Bowie we pass Brend Bros. Feeds and Midwest Mud (a distributor of mortor, cement, drywall mud, grout, etc.).
Now we enter Wichita Falls. Here we see a small yard for sorting local switching. Industries in town include MAP oil supplies, Wichita tool supply, and Doorchester grain. Local switching also includes interchange with the Wichita, Tillman & Jackson represented by the smaller yard just in front (to the right) of the staging yard. Thus leaving Wichita Falls yard west we can follow the main (nearest the backdrop) into staging (Amarillo) or the interchange lead into WT&J's Katy yard. Adjacent to Katy yard we have Bell Processing, a large local scrap metal recycler. WT&J handles many ag products as well as propane for local customers in SW Olkahoma.
I hope that helps explain my thinking and some of what is difficult to see on the plan.
Texas Zepher wrote: The yard to the extreme left is a hidden staging yard,It would make a lot more storage space if you used a compound ladder on both ends of that yard.
This is a good thought. I will definately consider that option. Thanks.
n2mopac wrote:This represents a prototypical interchange with BNSF's Alliance sub leading to its huge intermodal fcility in Alliance, TX. I will have Intermodal traffic running from staging in the west into this interchange as per the prototype.
Now we enter Wichita Falls. Here we see a small yard for sorting local switching.
Where does the UP in Fort Worth go? Back to the staging yard on a different level?
Texas Zepher wrote: n2mopac wrote:This represents a prototypical interchange with BNSF's Alliance sub leading to its huge intermodal fcility in Alliance, TX. I will have Intermodal traffic running from staging in the west into this interchange as per the prototype.So there is another layer of track not shown? Or this is on the "same" track that goes through Wichita Falls.Now we enter Wichita Falls. Here we see a small yard for sorting local switching.Having a yard here sort of takes the need of blocking the train at the classification yard. I would eliminate it and replace it with a simple run around. Why have a big classification yard and then add things like this that reduce its value (usefulness)?Where does the UP in Fort Worth go? Back to the staging yard on a different level?
The Alliance Sub is represented by the two track at the far right upper corner. They are hidden from operators by the large ADM elevators. It is a separate track, but connects to the main at each end as the prototype Alliance sub connects to the Wichita Falls sup via a "y" going each direction at opposite ends of Saginaw.
The Wichita falls yard includes only an A/D track, 2 class tracks, and a run around. I include it for two reasons. 1) Its prototypical--the real thing has it. 2) It allows through freights to drop off cars that will be switched by the local when it comes. There is no switcher permanently assigned to Wichita Falls. That task is done by the local out of North Yard.
At the moment the UP interchange goes nowhere. My plan eventually is to extend it through the backdrop at the extreme top of the picture and include a couple of staging tracks for it.
I like it.
One thing I would change is to slightly alter the track layout so that less of the track is parallel to the edge. It wouldn't be hard looking at the layout and it really affects the visual interest.
Randy