Bli sd40-2 or kato Sd40-2 with tusnami sound decoder?

QUOTE: Originally posted by webrer Hi, i am debating whether or not, to buy a BLI an undec Sd40-2 and paint it in CP Rail colors or if i should buy a kato Sd40-2 with soundtraxxs new tusnami sound decoder in it.

As far as latest in goes, the Tsunami is notyet available.

QUOTE: I was wondering if anyone else owns a BLi Sd40-2 (if so, how does it run, and sound?) Also i was wanting to know if you can change the horn on the BLI Sd40-2 because the horn in bli website is completly wrong for CP Rail Sd40-2?

Correct but the preprogramed sound comes from QSI. You cannot change the horn. For the sake of costs, BLI will use the same horn for an entire model line of locomotives. Though it would be nice, if they started "customizing" horns for locomotives, prices will have to climb.

QUOTE: Secondly does anyone have a tusnami sound decoder for diesels? if so how does it sound and work? Does it compare to BLi or does it blow it out of the water?

AS indicated the Tsunami is not yet on the market.

QUOTE: The key thing i am looking for in a locomotive is, the horn, if it can mu, if it can run on both DC (i know that most features won't work in dc, but can it still run) and DCC, and lastly and most important if you can program either one to change the volume/sound of the prime mover, as there is more pull on the locomotive?

Volume is adjustable on Soundtraxx and QSI systems.

A bunch of us are waiting for the Tsunami. Just have to hang in there. The QSI systems on the BLI units are impressive (inspite of the horns). These are the units that Soundtraxx's Tsunami is going to be compared to. I hope that Soundtraxx gets it right!

Also, a "super decoder" by itself is not enough. A good baffling system, and quality components make a big difference in the delivery of sound.

QUOTE: Originally posted by webrer Hi, i am debating whether or not, to buy a BLI an undec Sd40-2 and paint it in CP Rail colors or if i should buy a kato Sd40-2 with soundtraxxs new tusnami sound decoder in it. I was wondering if anyone else owns a BLi Sd40-2 (if so, how does it run, and sound?) Also i was wanting to know if you can change the horn on the BLI Sd40-2 because the horn in bli website is completly wrong for CP Rail Sd40-2? Secondly does anyone have a tusnami sound decoder for diesels? if so how does it sound and work? Does it compare to BLi or does it blow it out of the water? The key thing i am looking for in a locomotive is, the horn, if it can mu, if it can run on both DC (i know that most features won't work in dc, but can it still run) and DCC, and lastly and most important if you can program either one to change the volume/sound of the prime mover, as there is more pull on the locomotive?

webrer
I had posed this for the Tusnami subject early on today, but it is way down the list. I thought you might want to read the specifications.

Tsunami DSD Specifications: List Price $179.00, Delivery in Dec 2003.

Tony's is now accepting orders and special pricing, in the Tony's tradition, will be announced soon.

Tsu • na • mi (tsoo-nä'-mee) n. A huge wave of sound caused by SoundTraxx's newest and slightly unpronounceable product (with apologies to Webster).

The Tsunami sound system is SoundTraxx's new high-performance, on-board locomotive sound system. Like the DSD-150 it replaces, Tsunami integrates a full-featured sound system, four Hyperlight lighting effects, a motor controller and a DCC decoder into a single, integrated package and is compatible with the NMRA DCC standards and Recommended Practices. Unlike the DSD-150, the Tsunami sound system can also be used on 'Analog' layouts and controlled with a conventional power pack, hence its model designation now begins with DSS rather than DSD.

The purpose of this paper is to highlight some of Tsunami's newest features and to illustrate their benefits to the consumer.

Design Highlights
There were four principal design goals for the Tsunami project:

Improve the sound quality
Increase functionality
Improve the motor control
Reduce the size
In addition, there were many suggestions made by SoundTraxx customers themselves that were also incorporated into the design specification (Yes, we actually do read those warranty cards!).

Meeting these objectives required an all-new design taking advantage of the latest electronic components and technologies on the market today. At Tsunami's core is a true 16-bit Digital Signal Processor, or DSP, capable of executing over 40 million instructions per second. With this new level of performance, SoundTraxx was able to give Tsunami 14 functions, over 22 individual sounds, and 4 special effects including the ability to alter the exhaust sound automatically in response to changes in the engine load. The motor controller received numerous enhancements as well, including the use of high frequency PWM and back-emf based load compensation. To keep the size down, only components available in highly miniaturized packages were selected for use in the Tsunami resulting in a form factor that measures almost 30% shorter and 50% thinner than the DSD-150.

New Sounds
To take advantage of Tsunami's increased sample rate and dynamic range, all sound effects have been re-mastered and re-digitized for the best audio possible. Some of the many new sound effects added to the Tsunami repertoire include:

Multiple Whistles and Horns
Each Tsunami will offer several horn or whistle selections within each model making it easier to select the right sound of your favorite model. And yes Mr. Lamont, the SP GS-4 will have an air horn too!

Short Whistle (or Horn)
To supplement the primary whistle, a short whistle control has been added to produce a short, snappy toot needed for many common whistle signals.


Dynamo
The dynamo sound effect has been improved to include the sound of the turbine windup when it is first turned on.


Brake Squeal
This effect has been added to both steam and diesel models and may be activated manually using a function key or automatically when the engine is slowed to a stop.


Water Stop - The water stop effecft can be activated with a function key whenever the engine is stopped and begins with the sound of the tender hatch being opened followed by the sound of water filling the tender.



In all, there are over 22 steam sound effects including the bell, air pump, exhaust chuff, coupler, steam release, cylinder cocks, snifter valves, brake release, side rod clank, Johnson bar/power reverse, blower, injector, pop valve and Fireman Fred.

And there are over 16 diesel sounds including the bell, engine start, engine exhaust, engine shutoff, dynamic brakes, air compressor, brake release, coupler, and Fireman Ed.

More Functions = More Fun!
To help control all these sounds, Tsunami will respond to up to 14 function keys. Function assignments are similar to the SoundTraxx LC decoder series in order to maintain consistency across product lines. Of course, Tsunami's function mapping feature can always be used to change the control configuration to suit one's personal taste.


Function Steam Diesel
FLF Headlight Headlight
FLR Backup Light Backup Light
F1 Bell Bell
F2 Whistle Air-Horn
F3 Short Whistle Short Horn
F4 Steam Release Dynamic Brake
F5 FX5 FX5
F6 FX6 FX6
F7 Dimmer Dimmer
F8 Mute Mute
F9 Water Stop RPM +
F10 Dynamo RPM -
F11 Brake Release/Squeal Brake Release/Squeal
F12 Coupler Coupler

For those operators using cabs with fewer functions, Tsunami also provides the ability to configure some sounds for automatic operation.

Sound Effect Processor
Tsunami has four built-in sound effects that allow the individual sounds (i.e., whistle, bell, etc.) to be modified in a particular manner. Each effect is fully adjustable using the decoder's CV settings and each effect can be turned on or off as desired.

Mixer
Tsunami's new mixer design incorporates several new innovations. To begin with, there are 24 individual volume settings allowing each sound effect level to be independently adjusted. A master volume control has also been added so that the overall audio level can be easily changed with a single CV. Finally, the mute function has been improved to provide a more pleasing fade-off/fade-on effect.


Dynamic Digitral Exhaust Processor (DDE)
The DDE processor has been greatly improved over the earlier DSD-150 design and in addition to sensing changes in the throttle setting, it now factors in the actual load placed on the locomotive by measuring the motor's back-emf level. This data is then used to automatically adjust the timre, volume and other parameters of the exhaust sound to simulate what would be heard from a prototype locomotive under similar conditions.

The sound of the steam chuff, for example, will have a deep, booming quality while the engine is working a grade or starting a long train and a quiet, wispy sound while the engine is running light. The DDE processor can also be used to raise and lower the side rod clank volume with engine load as well!


Reverb
A digital reverb has been included in the Tsunami system to add "spatial presence" to selected sound effects. By adjusting the reverb level and delay time, the user can simulate multiple prime movers for example, or the effect of operating in hilly terrain.


Multi-Band Equalizer
Each Tsunami sound system incorporates a multi-band equalizer similar to the "graphic" equalizer found on many of today's home and automotive stereo systems. Tsunami's equalizer allows the user to cut and boost sound levels by +/- 12dB over seven selected frequency ranges(62Hz, 125Hz, 250Hz, 500Hz, 1KHz, 2KHz and 4KHz) and providces the "ultimate" tone control.

Using the equalizer, the user can easily compensate for deficiencies in the speaker installation to produce a flatter and overall, a more accurate frequency response. Similarly, the equalizer can be used to match the sound system's response to that of the speaker. Consider a typical 12mm speaker. Limited by the laws of physics, this speaker will produce very little bass no matter how big a signal is sent to it. If the low frequencies are too great, the speaker will distort and eventually burn out. In such an instance, the equalizer can be used to lower the bass levels resulting in a clearer and more satisfying sound as well as a longer speaker life.

HyperDrive Motion Control System
No, the Hyperdrive will not transport you to the next galaxy but it will make your locomotive run better! Tsunami's motion controller incorporates all of the most advanced motor control features found in the DCC marketplace today plus a few new ones:

Scalable Load Compensation
Load compensation (a.k.a. back-emf control, or cruise control) is used to help maintain a constant locomotive speed and is useful for low speed operations. Steam modelers using auto-chuff will especially appreciate this feature, as the exhaust cadence will keep better time with the locomotive speed over a wider range of operating conditions.

Tsunami measures the motor's back-emf voltage to determine the load on the locomotive and the amount by which to increase or decrease the motor speed. Thus, power to the motor is increased when going uphill and decreased when going down hill. The degree of load compensation can also be adjusted so the decoder has more or less ability to correct any given speed change.


High Resolution Speed Steps
While most decoders topday can support 127 speed steps, Tsunami has 2048 speed steps! Admittedly, there are no DCC systems on the market as yet supporting this many speed steps; however, Tsunami interpolates between speed steps during acceleration and braking and as part of its load compensation algorithm. The result is micro-fine speed control regardless of the speed step mode selected on the DCC system.


High Frequency PWM Drive
Virtually all DCC decoders used a form of PWM (Pulse-Width-Modulation) to control motor speed. At low frequencies, the PWM signal used to control the motor speed can result in an audible hum or buzz, especially in brass locomotives. To mitigate this problem, Tsunami uses an ultra-sonic PWM frequency adjustable to 39KHz, well beyond the range of human hearing and safe for coreless motors as well.


Torque Control
Unfortunately, using a high PWM frequency also reduces the available motor torque. To correct for this loss, Tsunami employs a special torque control algorithm resulting in improved locomotive performance, especially at low speeds.


Speed Curves
Like all other SoundTraxx decoders, Tsunami provides a user-customizable speed table and an adjustment for starting voltage as well as 14 preset speed curves.


Adjustable Momentum
The acceleration and braking rates are independently adjustable and can be used to simulate the momentum of a heavy train. Additionally, in the event of a sudden direction change, Tsunami will first slow the motor to a full stop before changing directions and then accelerate back to the original speed.


Higher Amperage Ratings
The Tsunami will be available in a 1-amp model suitable for use in most HO scale models. More powerful 3 and 5-amp models will also be offered for use in larger scale locomotives.



Hyperlight Lighting System
Tsunami provides four function outputs for controlling lights. Each output can be independently set to any of SoundTraxx's 14 different Hyperlight lighting effects including the on-off headlight, dimmable headlight, mars light, gyra-light, rotary beacon, stratolite, ditch lights, single and double pulse strobe lights, engine exhaust and firebox flicker. Tsunami also has a new effect for steam locomotives called the "Dyno-Light" which synchronizes the lamp brightness to the "output" of the dynamo such that the lamp brightness gradually increases as the dynamo builds up speed.

Another new feature added to the Hyperlight system is LED Brightness Correction. An LED exhibits a much different output response than an incandescent bulb. As a result, LEDs were historically not recommended for use with the lighting effects, as they tended to be over-bright and a bit life-less. Tsunami now provides a control mode that corrects for the output differences resulting in a more eye-popping effect regardless of which type of light is used.

And of course Tsunami also includes the other lighting features found on previous generations of SoundTraxx products such as choice of directional or Rule 17 lighting controls, grade crossing timers and an adjustable flash rate.

Also, the Kato is about half the price of BLI., and you can add sound later after the prices fall.
Bob Hayes

Well I have heard and run the BLI units and the ones I ran were noisy. Others have reported theirs are quiet so we might have gotten a bad batch, it happens. I think the shell rendition is much nicer on the Kato unit. I even think the Athearn has a better shell. If it was me, I would buy a Soundtraxx unit and put it in a Kato. Also, the BLI locomotive has a generic sound chip in it. The problem will be finding a DSD150. They are getting hard to find. The LC Second Generation series would work too, plus you can get a DCC plug version which will be an easy install.

QUOTE: Originally posted by raynbecky Well I have heard and run the BLI units and the ones I ran were noisy. Others have reported theirs are quiet so we might have gotten a bad batch, it happens. I think the shell rendition is much nicer on the Kato unit. I even think the Athearn has a better shell. If it was me, I would buy a Soundtraxx unit and put it in a Kato. Also, the BLI locomotive has a generic sound chip in it. The problem will be finding a DSD150. They are getting hard to find. The LC Second Generation series would work too, plus you can get a DCC plug version which will be an easy install.

Ray,

You list some good opinions but there's one that you have to consider. The BLI sound chips are not "Generic". The sounds are from prototype locomotive recordings.

I would agree that the way QSI has been assigning diesel locomotive horns is rather "generic" with the "One horn fits all" approach to each model line. From what I've read this will change later this year with modelers being able to select which horn to select. But we must consider that BLI has to make "some compromises" to keep costs down, and their products affordable.

But let's examine ourselves a bit. ( I had to after a friend pointed this out). Though onboard sound has been around for a number of years, it's only been less than 5 years that the high quality, dynamic sound has been advanced to the point where even "Newbies" can jump into it. We've got the cake but suddenly we're demanding more and more ice cream on top of it from the manufacturers. BUT they have to perform extensive marketing research, product development, tackle bugs and quality control issues, make costly investments and consider profit margins. Investment is no longer the "Hundred Thousand Dollar  range............now it's in the Million Dollar digit arena, sad to say.[:0]

So we shouldn't be so quick to rip a company to pieces (yes, I'm guilty too) because their products satisfy us only 90%. Best thing to do is write them intelligent, concise feedback. One of the suggestions I made last year is that if a manufacturer produces a product in which many forum members see a discrepancy that should be corrected, then a forum member should make a post and ask forum members to send that manufacturer "intelligent" e-mails. Since we give them our money, they do listen!

10-4!

The big question is, will you be able to fit a SoundTraxx Tsunami into a Kato model without grinding away most of the frame?

My experience with the Kato NW-2 models is that the cast weight fills every available nook and cranny, and the only way a decoder could be installed was to mill a cavity for it. Even if the Kato SD40-2 is DCC Ready, it will still probably not have room for a speaker.

I'm eagerly awaiting the release of the Tsunami for steam engines, which should be a lot easier to install.

I wish Athearn would release their SD-40T-2 Tunnel Motors with a QSI system in them.

QUOTE: Originally posted by cacole I wish Athearn would release their SD-40T-2 Tunnel Motors with a QSI system in them.

Cacole, I have a video that, for a few seconds, shows a trio of prototype Rio Grande SD40T-2s coming down a grade with a heavy freight. Those dynamic brakes are "Screaming"! Would be cool if that effect can be fully duplicated for our models.

QUOTE: The big question is, will you be able to fit a SoundTraxx Tsunami into a Kato model without grinding away most of the frame?

--- I checked the Litchfield Station website and saw the "size comparison photos" of the old DSD 150 and the new Tsunami. The Tsunami is MUCH flatter and slightly shorter. Hopefully this will help as I've noticed that my newer Atlas HO hood locomotives are also pretty cramped for space. This is why when I do "go for it" the first ones I'll do will be cab units (E units, F units, and Cowls)

QUOTE: My experience with the Kato NW-2 models is that the cast weight fills every available nook and cranny, and the only way a decoder could be installed was to mill a cavity for it. Even if the Kato SD40-2 is DCC Ready, it will still probably not have room for a speaker.

I see what you mean. When the time comes, my grinders will be ready!

Antonio, I DID contact BLI early and often directly and through my contacts with QSI. (They are in Beaverton, OR not far from where I live.) I have heard my share of SD40-2's too. The fact is that the shell rendition on the BLI model is bad, sorry but it is. I tried to get BLI to fix it and they ignored my feedback. (I sent pic's too.) I also DID test the 4 SD40-2's we had and they were all noisy. The motor noise was louder than the sound system after they got to their upper mid-range speed. One was so loud it drowned out the sound, now I'm sorry but that's loud! Also, the sound chip is a generic chip. I do think it sounds pretty good though, when the motor isn't drowning out the sound. If you only care about the sound and aren't so picky about the shell details go with the BLI model. You will be happy. If you want an accurate shell go with a Kato or an Athearn. BTW - The new Athearns are just as smooth running as any Kato. All of mine also had a lower starting voltage than the Kato units too. I was very impressed with their performance. Unforutunately they can still have that characteristic Athearn whine but I have had some that were extremely quiet too. (I have 10 of them.) If you go with Athearn have it tested at your LHS and get a quiet one.

Hey Ray!

Don't apologize! That's what we need here. Straight, down to earth input. That's how we all help each other with "Pro" and "Con" feedback on products. As I said on another thread, I sincerely believe that once Soundtraxx's Tsunami is released, IF IT IS AS GOOD AS THE HYPE WE'VE BEEN READING, then BLI / QSI is going to have some very tough competition in the HO and N diesel sound arena.

When you think about it if a modeler is not satisfied with a BLI diesel's appearance, then he can easily purchase a competitor's more detailed version like a P2K and equip it with Tsunami sound.

thanks guys for all the great info. I am going to wait for the new tusnami decoders, and buy some kato sd40-2's while i wait. Although the BLI Sd40-2 with QSI sound is tempting, i'd rather wait for the tusnami decoder and get all the sounds right!

QUOTE: Originally posted by webrer thanks guys for all the great info. I am going to wait for the new tusnami decoders, and buy some kato sd40-2's while i wait. Although the BLI Sd40-2 with QSI sound is tempting, i'd rather wait for the tusnami decoder and get all the sounds right!

Hey Webrer,

I just visited the Suncoast Model Railroad club and got to see and "hear" a BLI SD40-2 in action. It was nice! This Union Pacific SD40-2 was the lead unit in a freight train with 4 other locomotives. The owner was really enjoying running her. He had the volume set just to the point where one could barely hear the horn blowing when it reached the other end of the huge layout.

It's one thing to see a test run on a store shelf, and a totally neat experience to see a BLI diesel pulling a train on a layout. Was enjoyable![:)][:D][8D][;)]

Don't worry about the opinons on here, including mine. If you want this unit, go for it. Even when the Tsunami does become available, I'd like a few QSI equipped BLI units. The Tsunami will still need to be installed so costs would exceed that of buying a BLI unit if you're not going to install it yourself.

Hopefully Atlas and Life Like will be smart and get Tsunami's installed on some of their units!

10-4![;)]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45 QUOTE: Originally posted by raynbecky Well I have heard and run the BLI units and the ones I ran were noisy. Others have reported theirs are quiet so we might have gotten a bad batch, it happens. I think the shell rendition is much nicer on the Kato unit. I even think the Athearn has a better shell. If it was me, I would buy a Soundtraxx unit and put it in a Kato. Also, the BLI locomotive has a generic sound chip in it. The problem will be finding a DSD150. They are getting hard to find. The LC Second Generation series would work too, plus you can get a DCC plug version which will be an easy install.

I'm not much into sound for my locos even though I believe the BLI, especially steam, sound fantastic. The T1s and cab forwards have unbelievable resonance and volume w/ little or no distortion. Now for the SD-40s, the sound is good and has decent volume. Of the (5) SD-40s that I heard run, 2 had very noisy drives. One was so bad that it has to be returned( continued running to break-in only ran worse and noise became louder. BLI may have good sound but the quality of the drive and shell detail leaves much to be desired. The SD-40 handrails seem distorted the end platform rails are horible w/ the drop step floating as part of the handrails. Even early P2K GP-18s had a better step, as clunky as it seems today. One of the units was ordered by a fellow club member as an undec. This one is on it's way back to BLI also. Who ever primers an undec loco. all the details were applied- grabs etc, and the primer was very heavy and uneven. Also the truck air piping protrudes from the sideframe almost to the point of interfering w/ the jack pad on the side sill. I don't have any explanation for this and don't want to speculate, but BLI needs to get with the program, at least w/ the SD-40 go figure, the SW-7 is clean, decent and runs good. Some complain that it doesn't pull well- but it is only a switcher.
I did share my observations w/ a BLI rep at the Springfield Show they were especially surprised about my findings on the undec unit and will pass it on. I'm not trying to ba***he product line, only pass on what I found about this particular loco.
I do love to run my Atlas, Kato, P2k, Stewart's, a good lash-up with a string of 30+ loaded hoppers really look great coming down the mainline. The best part of the hobby : This is what it's all about.
Bob K.

Robert Knapp,

Modelers like you giving clear, unbiased feedback to the manufacturers, help our hobby. Hopefully BLI will take the good feedback to heart and make an effort to pay more careful attention to body detailing on their diesels.

Apparently, BLI may have decided to spend "only so much" for body detailing as they invest a lot in developing a new locomotive model. However, they should have realized by now that as far as body detailing, Athearn (Genesis), Life LIke (P2K), and Atlas have raised the bar considerably so HO modelers are expecting a certain level of detail quality for the money that they're spending on a model diesel.

Hopefully the upcoming F7, AC60, and other units will have detailing comparable to the lines mentioned above.

I really would not like to see BLI slide downwards, especially now since the MTH vs. QSI lawsuit is still festering in the courts.

In the past, BLI's QSI soudn has been roughly 45 times better than soundtraxx, or at least that's my opinion. Anyway, you probably can't change the sound of either. Also, the computer sound byte doesn't sound like the real thing, don't understand why, maybe its because of the different speaker size on a computer and in a loco. BLI can MU, and will run in DC or DCC. You actually still have a lot of sound control in DC, if you put BLI's control inline with your transformer wiring. The volume is adjustable on QSI's sound chip. If you do decide to add a chip rather than purchase a loco with one already installed, consider putting it in a dummy and running it in the consist, as there isn't much room to work with, especially in KATO's. However, there is some room to put more weight in your powered loco, so really you get two advantages that way.

Hope this helps,
Greg

Here's what you do. First, you wait until the leftover BLI SD40's go on clearance at Standard or Train World for less than the cost of a Sountraxx decoder setup. Such as the $139 price on PRR M-1's right now. Then you take the sound board and speakers and install in a different model with a more detailed shell. Or update the driveline with some NWSL parts and fit a nicer shell to the BLI chassis.

--Randy